Confessions of a Brass Rat. Steel case 5.56 in the AR?

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BSA1

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OK. I will publicly admit that I am a brass rat. I am also a cheap skate, er, frugal. I reload most of my ammunition so losing even one fired brass case when at the range causes me great distress. As my gun club rifle range has a lot of good grass in front of the shooting benches any brass that lands in it is hard to find.

Steel case 5.56 ammunition is much cheaper than brass cased. I recently noticed that I can get 500 rounds of Wolf for $95.00. I have always avoided steel case ammunition as I have read it is hard on the gun and the extractor.

So what is truth about firing steel case 5.56 ammunition in the AR-15?
 
It will wear the BCG components out faster than brass. How much faster is hard to say. The bullets also are usually bi-metallic, therefore your barrel will also wear out faster. So, the question becomes, how much wear is acceptable to you, and how much money can you save, when you figure on replacing components due to wear. A lot of online studies (you know, gospel) says that it will pretty much even out in the end, so use whichever you prefer. More expensive brass and let the parts last longer, or cheaper steel and use some of your savings to replace parts more often.
 
OK. I will publicly admit that I am a brass rat. I am also a cheap skate, er, frugal. I reload most of my ammunition so losing even one fired brass case when at the range causes me great distress. As my gun club rifle range has a lot of good grass in front of the shooting benches any brass that lands in it is hard to find.

Steel case 5.56 ammunition is much cheaper than brass cased. I recently noticed that I can get 500 rounds of Wolf for $95.00. I have always avoided steel case ammunition as I have read it is hard on the gun and the extractor.

So what is truth about firing steel case 5.56 ammunition in the AR-15?

You might find the LuckyGunner guys have some of the answers to your questions.

They actually went out and experimented with loads and loads of ammo with four identical AR's. Their suffering is your gain.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
 
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I have used quite a bit of it in my "beater" AR. I would never use it in my Larue or Barnes Precision rifles. Some guns like it, some don't, as far as reliability. Its very "dirty". If you are thinking of trying it, buy a small amount first and see how it acts in your gun before you get married to a case of it.
 
No experience with it in an AR-15 but since 1992 I've used a ton of steel case 7.62x39 in two different SKS's and nothing has broken yet on either of them. Since 2012 my 9mm Glock 19 has had almost 1800 rounds through it with zero problems and I estimate close to 80 or 90 % of those were steel case. It may accelerate wear on some parts like I've always heard but based on my personal experiences in three different firearms I feel that you'd have to go through an enormous amount of ammo before seeing the differences. I know some folks take issue with that but that's my personal opinion based on my experience.
 
No experience with it in an AR-15 but since 1992 I've used a ton of steel case 7.62x39 in two different SKS's and nothing has broken yet on either of them. Since 2012 my 9mm Glock 19 has had almost 1800 rounds through it with zero problems and I estimate close to 80 or 90 % of those were steel case. It may accelerate wear on some parts like I've always heard but based on my personal experiences in three different firearms I feel that you'd have to go through an enormous amount of ammo before seeing the differences. I know some folks take issue with that but that's my personal opinion based on my experience.

The major issue in the Lucky Gunner test was barrel erosion from the exclusive use of bi-metal (partial steel) jackets on the bullets more than extractor breakage, etc. I suspect that it would be more of an issue in rifles than handguns because of velocities involved. The SKS and AK were designed to use steel cased ammo from the get go and chrome lining helps with that somewhat.
 
Assuming the accuracy is sufficient for your application and your volume of use is high enough to notice the money expenditure than steel cased ammo's savings is usually good enough to pay for the parts it wears out faster.

Even at Wolf prices you will have burned as much or more money in ammo than the gun was originally worth to usually cause major damage. The lucky gunner test showed significant lost in accuracy after 4000 rds of the worst ammo (Wolf & Brown Bear). At $95/500rds that is at least $760 dollars worth of ammo to ruin a $150-$250 barrel.
 
losing even one fired brass case when at the range causes me great distress ... my gun club rifle range has a lot of good grass in front of the shooting benches any brass that lands in it is hard to find ... AR-15?
Get a brass catcher for your AR15 so you don't get "distressed".

I use two velcro wraparound brass catchers for my AR/PCC and I don't get distressed about my brass. :D

Not 100% of brass get caught but a few that don't make into the catcher are easily picked up by me.

If you reload, why fuss with steel cases?
 
I pick up change in a parking lot and in the past shot, steel aluminum and plastic cased ammunition. Never reloaded it though, I am a good enough brass rat to get plenty of range pick up brass and leave the other stuff behind.
 
Get a brass catcher for your AR15 so you don't get "distressed".

I use two velcro wraparound brass catchers for my AR/PCC and I don't get distressed about my brass. :D

Not 100% of brass get caught but a few that don't make into the catcher are easily picked up by me.

If you reload, why fuss with steel cases?

Actually I brought a Caldwell mesh bag that fits on a AR to catch the empties. I have not tested it yet.

The target stands are 25 yards downrange so if I want to practice at closer distance I have to walk downrange which means trying to find the empty cases in the grass and weeds. With steel whatmeworry.

Being a cheapskate, er frugal sometimes is a difficult challenge. What really makes me mad is when I drop a primer onto the floor when I am reloading and I can’t find it. Dang it to beat all losing .03 cents.
 
OK. I will publicly admit that I am a brass rat. I am also a cheap skate, er, frugal. I reload most of my ammunition so losing even one fired brass case when at the range causes me great distress. As my gun club rifle range has a lot of good grass in front of the shooting benches any brass that lands in it is hard to find.
..............I help my club by picking up fired cartridges regardless if they're brass or steel. I put the steel stuff in the trash barrel, but if it's boxer primed brass I collect them, de-prime them, and throw them into a plastic tote that goes to the scrap yard when full. Scrap prices fluctuate a lot but brass is pretty worthwhile generally for selling on the scrap market. Just another way to recycle stuff and pick up a few bucks. IMG_1762 (2).JPG IMG_1763 (2).JPG Got one small tote for boxer primed brass and another for rimfire brass. Too bad there's not a market for those steel cases or I'd be saving those also.
 
Well, maybe. But they're supposed to be brass...:D

Nice, American brass. Made right next door in Wisconsin.

https://www.natchezss.com/jagemann-unprimed-brass-rifle-cartridge-cases-5-56mm-500-ct-bag.html

Top Brass is even cheaper.

Of course it all depends on the rifle.
A low expectations rig with a MidwayUSA sixty dollar barrel could plink inexpensively for a long while.

Me personally? No steel through my steel.

From what I remember, on this forum or another, some guy was reporting back on his experiments reloading milsurp U.S. Steel .45 ACP cases because the ammo was boxer primed at the time. It worked but was not an optimal choice and there might have been a rust issue.
 
I pick up change in a parking lot and in the past shot, steel aluminum and plastic cased ammunition. Never reloaded it though, I am a good enough brass rat to get plenty of range pick up brass and leave the other stuff behind.
Federal aluminum case 9mm was the only thing my tec9 didn't jamb on and I don't believe in reloading 9mm.
If I have people coming over to shoot I run steel cased 45 acp also. I shoot it the same as my reloads standing.
 
The major issue in the Lucky Gunner test was barrel erosion from the exclusive use of bi-metal (partial steel) jackets on the bullets more than extractor breakage, etc. I suspect that it would be more of an issue in rifles than handguns because of velocities involved. The SKS and AK were designed to use steel cased ammo from the get go and chrome lining helps with that somewhat.
Not true, the SKS and the AL-47 were design when the Soviets were still using brass. They didn't go full steel until the mid-1950s.
 
Not true, the SKS and the AL-47 were design when the Soviets were still using brass. They didn't go full steel until the mid-1950s.

After doing a bit of checking, the situation is a bit more muddled and I was wondering if you had a source for your note.

As far as a quick check via the internets, I checked sources and subsequent posts and the Russians apparently did use steel for their 7.62x54r during WWII and at least the technical sources tend to agree with the ammo specialist folks that the m43 was a bimetallic copper washed case from the get go after design approval. That would indicate that the SKS and the AK would have been designed to use that cartridge. Where the confusion might be is that the Russians apparently switched to lacquer coating in the mid 50's according to those sources below from copper washed steel.

This where I got that from,
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?378246-Steel-Cased-Ammo

And, it is clear that the Russians used copper washed steel ammo during WWII for the 7.62 x 54r https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/1945-dated-soviet-7-62x54r-question/2927

Now wikipedia, tells me that the original winning design of the m43 cartridge was copper washed steel, "The 57-N-231S cartridge used a "bimetallic" (steel and copper) case. " and their source was https://military.wikia.org/wiki/7.62×39mm which says the same thing.

Now, what happened between the m43 cartridge during development might have had several variants but given the difficulties involved in setting up steel case production in the US, the Russians might have had something similar going on before adopting the final version. So it might very well be that the SKS was originally developed with brass cartridges but converted to steel somewhere before 1947 while the AK apparently was designed conjunctly with the steel cased ammo.

The AK files has a post with a translated Russian history of the cartridge from which most of the stuff on the internet was derived from maybe, for those that are interested.
Money quote, "Initially the 7,62 x39 cartridge manufactured only with bimetallic shell - steel clad tombac. But in 1948, owing to difficulties in obtaining the bimetal, the bulk of which is mainly supplied from the United States for lend-lease, machine sleeve chuck latunirovannoy were made of steel. Process latunirovaniya brought in German industry, was associated with the use of potent poisons. Therefore, with the development of production of bimetal with the Soviet Union in 1952, automatic liner again made from this material. Subsequently, in early 1960, the number of enterprises has been the production of steel and lacquered shells (coated with varnish green), which provided significant savings tombac. Even in our time, production of steel shells with a polymeric coating (water-polymer solution), which significantly reduced the harmful production. "

This was a computer translation by an AK files member of the original Russian Source document that is floating around. Did not want to open that puppy directly on my computer.
https://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54080
 
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You can always throw a tarp down and keep everything off the grass. Old bed sheets work too.

Buying bullets in bulk, about $70/1000, $100 worth of Varget, and $30 for primers gets you 1,000 rounds for pert near the same price. I’ve read steel cases don’t expand as much as brass in the chamber and that is the source of excess fouling. In any case if you don’t stock spare parts imagine paying shipping on an extractor or other small part which can negate savings. To me, controlling accuracy and knowing each round is loaded by me is worth it.
 
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The AR will handle it just fine, the money you save can be put towards a new extractor when it breaks.
 
The major issue in the Lucky Gunner test was barrel erosion from the exclusive use of bi-metal (partial steel) jackets on the bullets more than extractor breakage, etc. I suspect that it would be more of an issue in rifles than handguns because of velocities involved. The SKS and AK were designed to use steel cased ammo from the get go and chrome lining helps with that somewhat.

Keep in mind the luckygunner test was firing the guns basically non stop. Heat is what kills barrels. Breaking up the shooting sessions and keeping metal cool could very well double the barrel life from their experiments, but even running them hard they are 5000+ rounds before wear shows. For most shooters that is years or decades of use. If you are shooting 5000-10000 rounds a year, then it may make a difference however at that point we are dealing with a serious ammo budget. At current prices, 5000 rounds of cheap steel can be had for $900. Cheapest brass is $1350 for 5000 rounds so a barrel or extractor shouldn't be too big a deal. If we stretch out to 10,000 rounds the savings buys a new gun (which you may need anyway by the 20-25 thousand round count regardless).
 
Keep in mind the luckygunner test was firing the guns basically non stop. Heat is what kills barrels. Breaking up the shooting sessions and keeping metal cool could very well double the barrel life from their experiments, but even running them hard they are 5000+ rounds before wear shows. For most shooters that is years or decades of use. If you are shooting 5000-10000 rounds a year, then it may make a difference however at that point we are dealing with a serious ammo budget. At current prices, 5000 rounds of cheap steel can be had for $900. Cheapest brass is $1350 for 5000 rounds so a barrel or extractor shouldn't be too big a deal. If we stretch out to 10,000 rounds the savings buys a new gun (which you may need anyway by the 20-25 thousand round count regardless).

I totally agree with you on heat and the barrel life. But, steel jackets on a bullet do wear a barrel more, ceterus paribus, as the U.S. had the same experience in WWII where AP ammo was fired quite a bit in Europe. Just spitballing but I suspect that bullet velocity and pressure along with barrel hardness makes a difference along with heat generated so a low pressure round like the .45 ACP might not be an issue while a 5.56 round can get up to around 3000 fps. If the non steel jacketed bullets were substituted, I would suspect slight if any differences in bore erosion between the American Eagle test version and the steel cased ammo (except they had a problem with Wolf ammo for some reason in function).

If I recall right, the Luckygunner Bushmasters had chrome bores in the test and using an ordinary chrome/moly barrel might have demonstrated somewhat worse results from their testing. Nitrided barrels from what I have seen tend to fall between chrome moly and chrome on the durability scale.
 
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