Elmer Keith & the .41 Special

Jim Watson said:

Back when I was shooting IHMSA, it was thought that .41 Magnum was within the durability of an N Smith and the .44 Magnum would beat one up. It didn't mine, but I was not shooting full house loads. I just stared in amazement as Elgin Gates got the Freedom Arms guns banned because they cost too much!

There were several .40-.41 wildcats out there from such innovators as Pop Eimer. I believe he used a .401 WSL case cut to revolver length.
Too bad Herters never got the announced double action .401 Powermag on the market.

And if you want to go automatic, there were the 9.8mm Colt and the 9.65mm Grand Browning.

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I have an oddball Herters double action revolver that is N-frame sized. Mine is in 357 Magnum. The sights on it resemble those of the single action Herters Powermag, and it is marked Germany. I have only found a few references to it, in the annual guidebooks like Guns Illustrated or Gun Digest, for the year 1969 only, IIRC. It never occurred to me they might have planned a .401 version of it, but it is certainly big enough.

It seems very much like an early production gun - it has a wonky pull-forward cylinder release, the some of cartridge case rims don't clear the frame for ejection unless you have the cylinder turned just right, and I have seen pictures of two different hammer spring setups for it. One has a long flat spring powering the hammer directly (mine has that), and the other has a short but strong coil spring powering the short limb of an L-shaped lever, with the long limb driving the hammer. Weird.

I think it must have just been entering production when the Gun Control Act of 1968 ended Herters mail-order gun business. The maker is not marked on the gun anywhere I could find, but it was probably whoever was making the SA Powermags.

Here is link to some pictures (not of mine): http://www.ponyexpressfirearms.com/...er-mag-double-action-revolver-mfg-1960s-used/

Monac said:

I did not know that Super Vel dated back to the early 1970's. I have heard of them, but I did not really start learning about and shooting handguns until the early 1980's. I thought they did not get started until the mid to late 70's. Thanks, Ratshooter!

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Looks like I was a little late. More like 1967 was the starting date for issue ammo.

The first Super Vel Cartridge Company was formed in 1963 in Shelbyville, Ind. with Lee Jurras as the president. Two years later, in 1965, his good friend Ernest "Ernie" Wallein joined the company as an investor; he took the title of Secretary/Treasurer. Ernie has passed away but his son Kevin has the original of Ernie's typewritten account of Super Vel, The Super Vel Story, which should be read in its entirity by any student of Super Vel.

According to Ernie, the fall of 1967 was the tipping point for Super Vel when the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office adopted Super Vel. Word spread like wildfire and law enforcement agencies from all across the country stampeded to Super Vel and its hot, new jacketed hollow point bullets at sizzling velocities. Two years later, in 1969, Super Vel had so many police orders that they couldn't keep up.

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https://www.supervelammunition.com/our-story

jski said:

Didn’t Elmer Keith advocate for the .41 Special with a 240 gr cast bullet driven to around 900-1000 ft/sec ?

Big bore + heavy lead bullets ... moving relatively slow ?

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.38 Special said:

I have a very vague recollection of the .41 Special being mentioned in Sixguns by Keith. I'm pretty sure the bullet he recommended was 200 grains.

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See Pg. 280 of SIXGUNS. He actually mentions a cartridge of either .40 or .41 caliber, in a case the same length as a .44 Special, using Hercules (Alliant) 2400 powder, and a 200 gr. cast bullet at 1200 fps, "It could be named the .40 Special or .41 Special.".

I firmly believe that everyone, prior to purchasing any revolver, should be required to read SIXGUNS after which they would be issued a Permit to Purchase a Revolver, sort of like a drivers license for a wheelguns.

35W

Monac said:

have an oddball Herters double action revolver that is N-frame sized. Mine is in 357 Magnum.

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My, that's rather homely. I had visualized something like the nice J.P. Sauer double action.

35 Whelen said:

See Pg. 280 of SIXGUNS. He actually mentions a cartridge of either .40 or .41 caliber, in a case the same length as a .44 Special, using Hercules (Alliant) 2400 powder, and a 200 gr. cast bullet at 1200 fps, "It could be named the .40 Special or .41 Special.".

I firmly believe that everyone, prior to purchasing any revolver, should be required to read SIXGUNS after which they would be issued a Permit to Purchase a Revolver, sort of like a drivers license for a wheelguns.

35W

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Sorry, no permits to purchase anything please. The discussion is moot since the polymer framed semi-autos essentially killed (over time) any interest in a 40/41 caliber revolver for police use. The FBI developed what became the 40 S&W. LEO's started moving to it for their needs but it had recoil too and since moved back to the 9mm for the most part. But there is some variety of calibers used these days.

35 Whelen said:

See Pg. 280 of SIXGUNS. He actually mentions a cartridge of either .40 or .41 caliber, in a case the same length as a .44 Special, using Hercules (Alliant) 2400 powder, and a 200 gr. cast bullet at 1200 fps, "It could be named the .40 Special or .41 Special.".

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And that load is a bottom end 41 mag load and would have still been too powerful and have too much recoil for the average cop and police dept. That same bullet loaded to 900fps would have been better and more controllable to shoot. But the only thing thing would have made this better than the already available 44 special was if it were loaded into a mid size gun that was lighter weight than the N-frame sized guns used for 44 special.

Elmer Keith killed off his own idea by loading it too hot. But I guess he can't help himself.

Yep. Mid size (L frame sized gun) is what was needed along with a ".41 Special" . The .357 Magnum would never have become as popular with police as it did if it had remained in N frame sized guns.
Of course this is all purely an academic discussion because the days of police revolvers has long past.

The .41 Spec never came about simply because there was no need.

I think most forward looking designers could see, as early as the 60s, that revolvers for general use were on the way out.

Compare the most optimistic loads for a .41 Spec with the 10MM, and the .41 fails. My Glock 20 weighs a fraction of what an N frame weighs, and has almost triple the firepower.

Ratshooter said:

And that load is a bottom end 41 mag load and would have still been too powerful and have too much recoil for the average cop and police dept. That same bullet loaded to 900fps would have been better and more controllable to shoot. But the only thing thing would have made this better than the already available 44 special was if it were loaded into a mid size gun that was lighter weight than the N-frame sized guns used for 44 special.

Elmer Keith killed off his own idea by loading it too hot. But I guess he can't help himself.

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I think few modern hangunners, especially those who haven't read SIXGUNS, don't understand that Keith was first and foremost a hunter. Thus his idea for a for a 200 gr. bullet at 1200 fps in a .40 or .41 caliber cartridge.

I'd have to dig out some of my dad's old Shooters Digests, but I'm almost positive that at least one major ammunition company offered a Police or mid-range load for the .41 Magnum; that is a 200 gr. lead bullet at around 900-1000 fps.

35W

I have, and have read, ALL of Elmer's books.

IMHO, his writing is very entertaining, but, like most gun writers of that day, he is primarily a spinner of tall tales.

35 Whelen said:

I'd have to dig out some of my dad's old Shooters Digests, but I'm almost positive that at least one major ammunition company offered a Police or mid-range load for the .41 Magnum; that is a 200 gr. lead bullet at around 900-1000 fps.

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I thought that was the base Remington factory load with a lead bullet (the weight may have been 210 or 215grn, I forget.) That was always one of the problems with the .41MAG... either the very anemic Remington load, or full-house .41 Magnum loads... very little in between unless you handload.

My oldest bestest buddy carried a 6" Smith 57 for armored car duty one summer, in a rigid Don Hume 'Jordan' holster.. I told him he was a better man than I. Carrying a 4" 57 isn't so bad, but I wouldn't want to do it full-time for duty.

I call the .40S&W the '10mm Special.' It is to mid-range auto pistols what the .41 and .44SPC's are to the Magnums. As a .41MAG fan, I never warmed up to the idea of the .41SPC... at least not in the N-frame sized pistols. For that matter, I never really warmed up to the .44SPC... some people talk like it's the End All in handgunning, I didn't really see it. It's not a bad cartridge, mind you, but nothing that interests me. I do see the value of the .41 or .44SPC's in a downsized pistol like the L-frame or GP, however. The single .44SPC I owned was a Ruger Flattop... it was a right handy pistol, very svelte compared to my old .45 Vaquero, and carried a lot better. I still have the .45, however.