Man in Washington LITERALLY becomes the Joker

There may come a time when just ownership of a gun will be enough to trigger a red flag law. Someone will call the police because if a neighbor has a gun, then he obviously must be crazy.

Dibbs said:

But this guy on social media, posing threats, weren't there laws on the books to handle irresponsible behavior, before Red Flag Laws? Why not just enforce those laws, using due process?

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If he had posted credible threats he would've been charged and arrested. His threats were vague. "I wanna punch a random woman" isn't a credible or specific threat. Just foolish idle chatter. Therefore, no charges. Apparently red flaggers think there will be resources to chase down everyone who ever made an offhand remark in a forum or chat room and take guns away.

Too many view this guy as outside the norm (because he is) and therefore will begrudgingly support unconstitutional red flag laws in his case. Just look at some of the comments here. Even though he's committed no crime. "Because he is weird and makes vague threats I can't really support or I I begrudgingly support his rights" seems to be mainstay of responses. If he was Joe Strait-Lace there would be more outrage. He probably shouldn't have a gun but our rights aren't based on probabilities or societal judgments of another's character, but rather, due process of law.

Dibbs said:

My problem with Red Flag Laws is the same police who will avoid violent gangs with guns, a history of violence, and the absolute certainty they will perform violent acts with guns again, in the future; seem to have no problem kicking down the door of a lawful gun owner who has done nothing wrong, stealing their property, and violating their rights, all on the basis of a phone call of a whiny neighbor, or someone who dislikes them.
Now, as gun owners, we have to not only have a pristine record, jump thru all the hoops of gun ownership, but now we also have to be the local Prom Kings, and be loved by all, all the time. Any certainty any of us had, that we will retain our firearms, has been permanently eliminated. Red Flag Laws not only effectively erase our 4th Amendment rights, but the privacy rights of anybody else who is merely accused of having a gun.

But this guy on social media, posing threats, weren't there laws on the books to handle irresponsible behavior, before Red Flag Laws? Why not just enforce those laws, using due process?

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Just where have you seen the police avoiding violent gangs, or kicking in doors on Red Flag complaints? I think your statements are a bit exaggerated.
You have to remember that these states that have passed Red Flag laws are being taken over by liberals. To many conservatives don't get out and vote, but will complain about what is going on.
I see these Red Flag Laws being contested in the near future and ruled unconstitutional. But until then, if you live in a Red Flag state, don't post stupid stuff on social media or do stupid stuff that will draw unwanted attention to you.

sequins said:

I'm shocked that incel is a legitimate term throughout the nation now. It's really amazing that a dumb meme like that has gained so much power.

I wonder if incels will be branded as one of those disorganized terrorist gangs, like insane clown posse, where "membership" makes you defacto ineligible. Im a single guy and I'd be scared to be labeled an incel that's for sure...

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People make up phrases all the time in an attempt to legitimize or normalize an idea. The Internet spreads them quick enough to give them traction. But it does not by itself give them legitimacy or normalcy.

My opinion is this is a very sick individual who in his sick way also wants to feel empowered through membership in a group. If he is a representative sample who self-identifies this way, coupled with public threats of violence? Then yeah, I'm good with red flagging such a person.

Here is a quote from the article linked:

Police said many of the posts illustrated a 'history of violent and disturbing social media threats directed towards women'.

In one he wrote: 'I will shoot any woman any time for any reason.'

Another read: 'I really want to just punch a woman so hard her entire body just buckles and collapses.'

Do people read this and think this person should be left to his own devices?

unclenunzie said:

Do people read this and think this person should be left to his own devices?

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Red flag laws fly completely in the face of our right to free speech and the 2A. Search and seizure with out an actual crime being committed? How can that be constitutional?

However, making statements like he did, and the brandishing pictures seem to me to be just as much an instance of brandishing in a public place as if it were done in person. In my opinion that makes what he did illegal. I know that's a fine line and many people will disagree with me. But I think the issue is was it a threat, and if that's how it was perceived, why was he not charged with making a terroristic threat along with the seizure of his guns?

You may be right, and I don't disagree. Folks with a background in law will have a more educated opinion than mine. I don't know the law used to take his weapons, but if they determined he made terroristic threats, surely he would be locked up already and his guns would be in an evidence room. I just know I don't want him as a neighbor, and I'd bet it wasn't just police searching the internet randomly for people posting things like he did. He had to be known to them.

GunnyUSMC said:

Just where have you seen the police avoiding violent gangs, or kicking in doors on Red Flag complaints? I think your statements are a bit exaggerated.
You have to remember that these states that have passed Red Flag laws are being taken over by liberals. To many conservatives don't get out and vote, but will complain about what is going on.
I see these Red Flag Laws being contested in the near future and ruled unconstitutional. But until then, if you live in a Red Flag state, don't post stupid stuff on social media or do stupid stuff that will draw unwanted attention to you.

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I believe that the author might be refering to Antifa riots, where local authorities have sometimes held police in check, allowing the antifas to damage and injure people.

So far as red flag laws going agly, I am currently aware of one situation where police arrived at a home at 5:00AM in the morning, knocked at the door, and the homeowner answered holding a gun. This shouldn't seem unusual if the police want to conduct this activity before sunrise; I wouldn't assume someone knocking at MY door at that hour was necessarily there for my health. Anyway, things went sideways in warp drive and the homeowner was d.r.t.

It used to be that the law stated that most non extra-ordinary warranted actions against domiciled citizens had to take place during daylight hours. This apparently has become only a lost historical artifact, forgotten by all but cloistered historians.
Perhaps the idea should be revisited ....

Tommygunn said:

It used to be that the law stated that most non extra-ordinary warranted actions against domiciled citizens had to take place during daylight hours. This apparently has become only a lost historical artifact, forgotten by all but cloistered historians.
Perhaps the idea should be revisited ..

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I think police making contact with a home owner, other than in a full on raid, before sun up would exponentially increase the danger to the officers.

Meh.
The only lesson to be taken away from this is to practice better OPSEC.
I don't advertise being a gun owner to the wholesale public. In fact, I try to greatly limit that information to those whom I know won't use it against me. There's nothing to gain and perhaps everything to lose from doing otherwise.

sequins said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ix-guns-man-posted-photo-Joker-reference.html

We have a red flag gun seizure of a Joker fan from Washington who made some regrettable comments online. It's interesting to see his well documented social media to get a good idea of the litmus that will be applied in my state.

I'm torn on this, on the one hand this guy seems like a piece of work. On the other hand, if he's committed a crime then charge him and take the guns. This special legal status with a reduced burden of proof seems like a cudgel for undesirables more than anything.

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That guys a creep

unclenunzie said:

I just know I don't want him as a neighbor, and I'd bet it wasn't just police searching the internet randomly for people posting things like he did. He had to be known to them.

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Let's see. Young gun owner in need of guidance from a grown man or liberal excrement bird living next door? I'll take the frustrated kid making empty threats online because the reality is he hasn't committed any crime. The reality is when the chips are down a bunch of guys here are 100% supportive of red flag laws as long as the guy can be labeled negatively in the press. People these days are very fast to hate and condemn others that they don't really know.

Lyle Wyatt said:

He is still free and now even more angry because you took his property.

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Bingo. And rightfully so.

fireside44 said:

Let's see. Young gun owner in need of guidance from a grown man or liberal excrement bird living next door? I'll take the frustrated kid making empty threats online because the reality is he hasn't committed any crime. The reality is when the chips are down a bunch of guys here are 100% supportive of red flag laws as long as the guy can be labeled negatively in the press. People these days are very fast to hate and condemn others that they don't really know.



Bingo. And rightfully so.

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Maybe the press has put a negative spin on it, but your little hero painted himself more negative then the press by what he posted on social media.
I don’t like red flag laws, and I’m glad that I live in a gun friendly state where stupid laws are not passed just to make people feel good.
But like I said before. If you live in a state that has red flag laws, don’t go posting stupid stuff on social media.

GunnyUSMC said:

Maybe the press has put a negative spin on it, but your little hero painted himself more negative then the press by what he posted on social media.
I don’t like red flag laws, and I’m glad that I live in a gun friendly state where stupid laws are not passed just to make people feel good.
But like I said before. If you live in a state that has red flag laws, don’t go posting stupid stuff on social media.

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My hero? That sounds like you are trying to demean my support of the guy's 2A rights even though I already said he's outside the norm in society. Don't be somebody who only fights for the rights of those with whom you agree and share the same life outlook as. I would expect you of all people to understand that concept, Gunny USMC.

fireside44 said:

My hero? That sounds like you are trying to demean my support of the guy's 2A rights even though I already said he's outside the norm in society. Don't be somebody who only fights for the rights of those with whom you agree and share the same life outlook as. I would expect you of all people to understand that concept, Gunny USMC.

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Come on now. I was just messing with you when I called him your little hero.
I’m all for someone’s 2A rights. I don’t believe that we have the right to pick and choose those that can have them based on how we feel about them.
But you have to agree with me that this guy is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. And he provided it by posting stupid stuff in a state that has stupid red flag laws.
If they don’t end up charging him with something, they will be required to return his property. That is, unless they have some other stupid state law.
I’m waiting to see some of these red flag laws contested. But I feel that we will have to wait until after the 2020 election and hopefully no new mass shootings by crazy people.

Was it in poor taste? Yes. So is the movie Blazing Saddles.
Was it stupid? In today's hypersensitive, anti gun world? Yes.
Was it an actual threat? My opinion is no.
I think one of the problems we have today with violence among the young is the lack of semi acceptable release for rage. When I was a pre-teen, if you had a problem with Joe Meathead you met in the schoolyard after school, exchanged a few punches and generally ended up best friends when the dust settled. Nowadays no sort of violence is acceptable and there's no outlet for hormonal anger. I'm not trying to explain or excuse it. I'm not a psychologist. But I'm trying to see what's different today than 50 years ago when I was a teen and had access to weapons but just ended up exchanging a few bloody noses with some schoolmates.

GunnyUSMC said:

But you have to agree with me that this guy is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

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We're probably lucky for that, he might go 'round stabbing people with himself.

fireside44 said:

Young gun owner in need of guidance from a grown man

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Many of us have encountered those types, myself included. I have no doubt the vast majority of us would try to set a good example, share our personal perspectives, and help guide a young man or woman in need of a positive adult role model. However this young man has posted violent ideas geared towards women and then posted pictures of himself that implied he was taking his rifles to the screening of The Joker film. When you put them in context, I don't blame anyone for being worried. Please remember the incident in Colorado surrounding the screening of The Dark Knight. Maybe it's not a direct connection, but people remember the former incident, and this young man certainly is old enough to remember as well. The context matters.

If an otherwise law abiding American Islamist were to post pictures on social media that hinted at a repeat of 9/11, and he was arrested, or had his guns taken away, how would you feel? The attack was committed by radical Islamists. Should we not take something like that seriously?

fireside44 said:

That sounds like you are trying to demean my support of the guy's 2A rights even though I already said he's outside the norm in society.

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Personally, I don't care if you want to walk down the street in a thong covered in jello with an open carried sidearm. It's not my business. I may not want to interact with you, but if you aren't making threatening comments or actions, it doesn't matter to me. I think there is a difference here based on behavior, not just outward appearance.

There are going to be lots of great poster children for individuals who's rights will be violated, especially given the new California "I'm scared of you just because you own guns." law. This Joker dude is not one of the folks to rally behind based on his implied threats and outward verbal aggression.

Honestly I think rallying behind individuals who act like this could play right into the hands of antigunners, because IF someone exhibiting this type of behavior takes it upon themselves to do something violent and we've defended them, it will feed into the antigun argument that we pro gun folks aren't even willing to discuss preventative measures when someone is making a threat. If you don't feel his actions were threatening, well, that's a different argument entirely.

Personally I take issue with his guns being seized without charge more than with his guns being seized.

sequins said:

Nothing to gain except normalizing gun ownership. When the only gun owners the public is exposed to are lunatics it damages the 2A for us all.

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Fair enough and yes, I agree. We sort of owe it ourselves to be good representatives of the right/hobby. But what I said is exactly in line with that philosophy. There's a balance between telling everyone in the world via social media that you're into guns and being a little discreet with whom you share that information. Without getting into the dirty details, I have to be a little extra cautious than most because of what I do. This is especially true now that my state has expanded red flag reporters to include anyone with a pulse.

fireside44 said:

unclenunzie said: ↑
I just know I don't want him as a neighbor, and I'd bet it wasn't just police searching the internet randomly for people posting things like he did. He had to be known to them.

Let's see. Young gun owner in need of guidance from a grown man or liberal excrement bird living next door? I'll take the frustrated kid making empty threats online because the reality is he hasn't committed any crime. The reality is when the chips are down a bunch of guys here are 100% supportive of red flag laws as long as the guy can be labeled negatively in the press. People these days are very fast to hate and condemn others that they don't really know.

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You quote selectively and omit the most important points. Sure, he needs help. He needed it earlier in his life but didn't get it, or maybe it didn't work out. The facts now show he made public threats of violence, and he also publicly showed he had the means. The police have a legal and moral responsibility to protect the public in aggregate.

I know people I'd rather not be around when they are target shooting or hunting because they lack basic safe handling skills. Ordinary people who could benefit from instruction and discipline. I'll bet lots of folks on here know of people they also don't want to be around during shooting activities. But I'll also bet none of them ever did anything that compares to what this young man did, and they should never be the target of police scrutiny.

Finally, I try to keep it high road here - your comment about a potential next door neighbor is not.

That's good for a close.