Why is .30 Carbine not made in rifles other than the M1?

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FE0132D1-F053-4EE1-8996-BE22D9441822.jpeg Some say why not just use a 9mm PCC? Well those are a useful and valid choice...I went that way myself for a few years, and having owned three different 9mm carbines. But the carbine is a significant increase of power, in a lighter weight weapon with a locked breech and gas operation, as opposed to a heavy bolt/blowback 9mm. The Carbine can reach out to 300yds, in a pinch.
As for the Mini14, I actually sold a Carbine in order to buy a Mini14 when I was young, and I regretted it the first time I shot the Mini. It was less accurate at 50yds than the Carbine had been at 100yds. Also, subjectively, the Mini handled like a brick, in comparison.
Above is my Auto Ordnance. I got it to take the place of my CMP Inland for serious use. I got a great deal on it, and it has proven reliable. With a 15rd mag of Hornady Critical Defense, I feel pretty well armed. It came with the Choate folding stock, which makes it handy to toss in the car, if needed. But I may pick up a surplus wood stock, since I prefer that.
 
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With the caption below it, a picture of a Jati would be more congruous.

hyvää päivää :)

It looks like a Tavor, a Draco, and an M1 carbine had a threesome. ;)
 
goosey,

I.....for....got

EXCUUUUUUUSSSE ME!

just teasing

I did forget but it is interesting the Israeli police interest was enough to get both the AR-30 Carbine and MAGAL made up. I believe the Magal is basically a shrunken AK (Galil) with neat furniture, isn't it? Does seem odd that they spawned two remakes on the worlds most popular military rifles and then went with just rebuilding ancient M1 Carbines.....perhaps that in itself says something we are not paying attention to.

-kBob
 
Outlaw75 said:
Ruger Mini-30's been around since 1987.
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Yep, but I was referring to the 60's, 70's, 80's gun culture, part of my post before the snipped quote... Referring to m1 carbines being very common and cheap.

'87 is barely the 80's. My point was, if there's a crap ton of surplus stuff, why reinvent the wheel? Also counterpoint with the Mini30, I bet if you talked to someone in 1990, and said you wanted a 7.62x39 rifle, and thought about a $500 in 1990 Ruger Mini 30, people would say you're crazy when you can get an SKS and crate of ammo for $99.

Plus, making quality guns is probably easier nowadays with CAD and CNC. So such thing back when the m1 was a thing.

All those points, probably why no one designed a new 30 carbine when there are a ton of m1 carbines.
 
eastbank said:
my one and only .30 cabine rifle is this non import Winchester with a bring back fighting knife(carried and used in the south pacific) and good condition bayonet and its not going any where. it was not intended to be a main line battle rifle, but for radio-jeep-truck drivers and other soldiers that could be thrust into a combat situation.
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Beautiful Winnie there !
 
I love my M1 carbine! I love the nice soft recoil that makes it a much nicer shooter than any of the PCC's I have shot. I love that my M1 carbine is considerably lighter than my Ruger PC9.

Reloading components are expensive for 30 carbine and ammo is even more expensive. I am confident in the 30 carbine as a man stopper but I think there are better cartridges available. The thing that makes the 30 carbine cartridge special isn't that it is that great of a cartridge... It is that the M1 carbine is that magnificent of a semi auto rifle.
 
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Speedo66 said:
It would be interesting if the one current gun whose action visually resembles a Carbine, the Mini-14, were made in .30 Carbine and designed to take original Carbine magazines. It would be cheaper than the replicas and probably better made.

That might (or might not) get the ball rolling....
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It would be cheaper compared to what's out now, but it would still be 6-700 bucks.
 
kBob said:
Dave,
Thanks for your posts. Is that your Marlin 62 per chance?
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I wish! Google image search result.

I've owned four carbines at various times: two Universals, an Iver Johnson commercial and a minty USGI, all traded away long ago for various reasons. The USGI helped pay for a new S&W 629 that I adore, but now I wish I could have raised the cash some other way and kept it.

Got any pictures of the MAC French "10/22" .30 carbine and its works and hidden mechanisms?
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I'll take a look through my copy of Full Circle sometime tomorrow. Mostly this book concentrates on roller delay projects, but some of their competitors were also covered.

Probably half the carbine ammo I shot as a teen was French "7.5mm Carbine" that was Berdan and I believe ( and treated like) corrosive
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Corrosive priming would be bad juju indeed in the M1 Carbine's gas tappet system, which is a bugger to disassemble and clean. In US service, the Carbine was always supplied, from day one, with non-corrosive primed ammo for that very reason.
 
Just an opinion, but IMO, the Mini-14 eclipsed the M1 Carbine, with a more effective, cheaper round.

The M1 Carbine was a great rifle(pistol?) in it's day, and is still a notable collector's item, and fun to shoot, but,
unfortunately, today, there are more viable options out there. The M1 Carbine round just isn't that efficient.
 
i bought 4-5 hundred rounds of older Mexican .30 carbine ammo several years ago and it was all corrosive primed, luckly I found out before shooting much of it. bummer.
 
In defense of the carbine, the problem in late WWII is the ammo.

In addition to a FMJ RN bullet, velocities were often well below original spec.
The mil spec standard originally called for 15.0gr of what is now known as H110/Win296.
Later, a change was made to other powders to meet orders, and avoid Winchester licensing and mark up. Specs called for velocity of 1,970-2,040fps. Late WWII lot#’s gave 1,800’s. Some Korean War mfg ammo often ran high 1,700’s at sea level and 59deg. Cool it to -25deg and it occasionally won’t cycle the action. Some current import ammo is no better (Armscor).

Relatives of mine and aquaintances had experience with it in Vietnam and were quite satisfied with it, even preferable to the AR15 which was going through teething pains. Different part of the world, different lot#’s of ammo, different environment.

My ‘43 Saginaw S.G. with a ‘44 Underwood barrel is unsatisfactory accurate for my original purpose. 12” groups at 100yds renders it impossible to shoot a competitive score in a carbine match. Unfortunately, it’s typical! Velocity with factory PPU ammo is in low 1,900’s. Barrel looks and measures new, but has something really wrong (throat?). Duplicating the original load of 15.0gr of H110 with GI brass, Win SR primers and a Sierra 110gr SptRN, yeilds 2,060fps and 10”groups at 100yds. My BlackHawk, shot offhand is actually better!

Given a well placed shot, it’s immediately lethal on deer. Problem is, accurate shot placement beyond ~40yds is nearly impossible.
This is what hurt the .30Carbine.
 
Other cartridges are close enough and have the market share already, eg 223, 7.62x39, 300 black out. The pistol calibers do well enough in a carbine format. Although not a semi, many people really like their lever actions, which in 357 and 30-30 are better than 30 carbine. The PDW also occupies the same market niche.

The M1 Carbine is really light and handy, but just too expensive for the versions out there.
 
GooseGestapo said:
In defense of the carbine, the problem in late WWII is the ammo.

In addition to a FMJ RN bullet, velocities were often well below original spec.
The mil spec standard originally called for 15.0gr of what is now known as H110/Win296.
Later, a change was made to other powders to meet orders, and avoid Winchester licensing and mark up. Specs called for velocity of 1,970-2,040fps. Late WWII lot#’s gave 1,800’s. Some Korean War mfg ammo often ran high 1,700’s at sea level and 59deg. Cool it to -25deg and it occasionally won’t cycle the action. Some current import ammo is no better (Armscor).

Relatives of mine and aquaintances had experience with it in Vietnam and were quite satisfied with it, even preferable to the AR15 which was going through teething pains. Different part of the world, different lot#’s of ammo, different environment.

My ‘43 Saginaw S.G. with a ‘44 Underwood barrel is unsatisfactory accurate for my original purpose. 12” groups at 100yds renders it impossible to shoot a competitive score in a carbine match. Unfortunately, it’s typical! Velocity with factory PPU ammo is in low 1,900’s. Barrel looks and measures new, but has something really wrong (throat?). Duplicating the original load of 15.0gr of H110 with GI brass, Win SR primers and a Sierra 110gr SptRN, yeilds 2,060fps and 10”groups at 100yds. My BlackHawk, shot offhand is actually better!

Given a well placed shot, it’s immediately lethal on deer. Problem is, accurate shot placement beyond ~40yds is nearly impossible.
This is what hurt the .30Carbine.
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What type of barrel band does your carbine have? Mine has the old Type 1 (skinny) band, and fails to hold the barrel and stock tightly together. It usually takes 30 rounds or so before it settles in to a spot it likes and then my accuracy improves. I’ve heard that the Type 2 (wide) band is much better, and the Type 3 with the bayonet lug is the best at holding the barrel steady and increasing accuracy.

Armscor and PPU ammo are both marginal at best. They work OK for plinking, but my most accurate rounds are loaded with 14.3 gr IMR 4227, and just barely duplicate the advertised 1990 FPS. H110, although faster, is my second choice with 110 gr FMJ. All guns are different though.
 
GooseGestapo said:
In defense of the carbine, the problem in late WWII is the ammo.

In addition to a FMJ RN bullet, velocities were often well below original spec.
The mil spec standard originally called for 15.0gr of what is now known as H110/Win296.
Later, a change was made to other powders to meet orders, and avoid Winchester licensing and mark up. Specs called for velocity of 1,970-2,040fps. Late WWII lot#’s gave 1,800’s. Some Korean War mfg ammo often ran high 1,700’s at sea level and 59deg. Cool it to -25deg and it occasionally won’t cycle the action. Some current import ammo is no better (Armscor).

Relatives of mine and aquaintances had experience with it in Vietnam and were quite satisfied with it, even preferable to the AR15 which was going through teething pains. Different part of the world, different lot#’s of ammo, different environment.

My ‘43 Saginaw S.G. with a ‘44 Underwood barrel is unsatisfactory accurate for my original purpose. 12” groups at 100yds renders it impossible to shoot a competitive score in a carbine match. Unfortunately, it’s typical! Velocity with factory PPU ammo is in low 1,900’s. Barrel looks and measures new, but has something really wrong (throat?). Duplicating the original load of 15.0gr of H110 with GI brass, Win SR primers and a Sierra 110gr SptRN, yeilds 2,060fps and 10”groups at 100yds. My BlackHawk, shot offhand is actually better!

Given a well placed shot, it’s immediately lethal on deer. Problem is, accurate shot placement beyond ~40yds is nearly impossible.
This is what hurt the .30Carbine.
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Wow, thats too bad. Both my carbines are 2-3" guns @100 yds on a good day. I mostly run S&B, sometimes Armscorp FMJ.

Is your recoil plate properly fitted and barrel "hang" set? This was the first thing I did to mine and have had great results.
 
Corpral_Agarn said:
This has been a really fun thread to read.

I have an old Plainfield (don't know much about them) carbine that shoots real nice.

I use it as a hiking gun when that is appropriate.

Other than that, it's a fun and historical shooter that makes me smile.
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The Plainfields are some of the better commercially-made carbines. Large numbers (as well as some Universals) were bought by the US Govt. and supplied through channels regular and irregular (CIA) to the ARVN, with some of those then seeing use by US advisors before we had regular troops on the ground.

Ive read that the group of carbines Century wanted to bring in from Korea a few years ago included numbers of Plainfields as well, indicating they may have bought some as replacements or the some of the shipments originally intended for Vietnam were eventually sent to Korea.
 
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NIGHTLORD40K said:
The Plainfields are some of the better commercially-made carbines. Large numbers (as well as some Universals) were bought by the US Govt. and supplied through channels regular and irregular (CIA) to the ARVN, with some of those then seeing use by US advisors before we had regular troops on the ground.

Ive read that the group of carbines Century wanted to bring in from Korea a few years ago included numbers of Plainfields as well, indicating they may have bought some as replacements or the some of the shipments originally intended for Vietnam were eventually sent to Korea.
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Hey thanks, Man!
 
amd6547 said:
View attachment 865428

Thats my CMP Inland, standing offhand, at 100yds using Hornady Critical Defense, and shooting moderately quickly.
The Auto Ordnance does about the same, but the dovetail mounted flip sight needs zeroed a little left...it hits about 2” further right.

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This has been a fun read...

I was at the range this past weekend. Among the firearms we shot there was a North American M-1, a Norinco "Paratrooper" model SKS, a Glock 17 and a .357 Taurus. I only shot the M-1 and SKS at fifty yards and the results from the M-1 were similar to those pictured above. Could I shoot the SKS as quickly and accurately? Maybe with more practice. How about the 9mm or .357? Probably not. At least not as quickly. I was thinking there might be the niche.

On the other hand, I could probably match that performance with my AR-15 which I left home that evening....
 
eastbank said:
i bought 4-5 hundred rounds of older Mexican .30 carbine ammo several years ago and it was all corrosive primed, luckly I found out before shooting much of it. bummer.
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Shoot the Mexican ammo, enjoy it, then thoroughly clean the M1 when you are done. Corrosive ammo doesn't immediately cause corrosion, it only causes corrosion if you shoot the corrosive ammo and then let it sit.

I have many C&R rifles, pistols and revolvers. I would never get to shoot some of them if I didn't shoot the corrosive ammo. I just make sure to clean the weapon well when I am done.
 
MikeInOr said:
Shoot the Mexican ammo, enjoy it, then thoroughly clean the M1 when you are done. Corrosive ammo doesn't immediately cause corrosion, it only causes corrosion if you shoot the corrosive ammo and then let it sit.
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Cleaning the gas piston is a pain. You have to dismount the stock, use a special tool to remove the piston nut, then replace and stake it when done.

Thats why the Govt. specified non-corrosive primers in the first place for .30 Carbine ammo, since the GIs couldnt be expected to clean the gas system in the field.

I would tear down that Mexican stuff and toss it.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Cleaning the gas piston is a pain. You have to dismount the stock, use a special tool to remove the piston nut, then replace and stake it when done.

Thats why the Govt. specified non-corrosive primers in the first place for .30 Carbine ammo, since the GIs couldnt be expected to clean the gas system in the field.

I would tear down that Mexican stuff and toss it.
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I didn't realize the M1 carbine was so difficult to clean. I can tear mine down and clean it in my sleep. I have some old rifles that are really awful to take apart and clean... like the SVT-40 comes to mind.
 
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Ignition Override said:
Excellent question by the OP, and I have no idea.

Just curious here, but wasn't the M-1 Carbine considered very effective for its Planned combat applications?
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Generally, yes. One Marine commander in the Pacific theater in WW2 said it was "the ace weapon of the war." It was light weight, easy to use in the island jungles of the Pacific, and the round penetrate better than the .45 ACP from the Thompson or Colt 1911.
 
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