Light carbine concept

Here is what the Taurus CT 30 looked like, It weighed over 6 pounds so would need to be trimed down and more plastic and alloys used in its redesign. It look good to me tho.

WestKentucky said:

Real world experience??? Why were so many carbines ditched in WW2? They would kill a man for sure, but they would not stop him. A hit with the 30 carbine let them fight for a few seconds before they realized they were dead in which time they could shoot, grenade, or stab a man. For defense, negative, and I don’t care if it’s a crackhead stealing your TV, a Japanese soldier on Midway, or a ticked off jealous husband, if somebody is intent on killing you, your firearm had damned well better stop them before they get a chance to kill you back. Your comment to the .357 magnum is a good point, it is favorable when compared to a handgun, but what is the common complaint about stopping effectiveness of a handgun?

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I think a lot of soldiers were hit by bullets bigger and faster than a .30 carbine that didn't realize they were dead for a few moments. My mother once had an old WW2 medical log containing pretty graphic descriptions, many with photos, detailing soldiers' wounds, how they reacted, and such. There were some truly bizarre .... and I do MEAN BIZARRE incidents of soldiers being shot and not knowing it until later .... some surviving, some not. One who survived was shot in the forehead by a Japanese rifleman, the bullet passing precisely down the chasm between his left and right brain hemispheres. He didn't know he'd been shot until his commanding officer pulled off his helmet and showed him the bullet holes -- entrance AND exit.
I don't know that many carbines were ditched in WW2. Many marines in the Pacific loved them for their lightweight and firepower in jungle warfare.
In Europe where longer distances were more the norm, yea, many prefer the Garand.
Keep in mind that they used ball ammo in war. Soft point or hollow point will greatly improve lethality.
Even in military form, a lot of Germans and Japanese soldiers died because of .30 carbine.

All that being said, and despite that I own and like my M-1 carbine, yes, today, for self defense use, I'd choose a modern weapon, if for no other reason than ammunition availability.

My comments in this thread are not to be taken as I don’t like the M1 Carbine, more that I think it’s a fools errand to R&D a new lightweight carbine for that round.

cluttonfred said:

Wow, a few people in this thread seem to be misinformed

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Well, I thought we were talking about a rifle, now we are arguing the merits of an eighty year old, effete, cartridge, that has a modern doppelganger, that comes in a rifle package that many citizens already own and are acustomed to.
The Blackout bests it in every way.
If you think expanding bullets are nice, you should see a two hundred grain Trident mono-metal opened to full glory from a Blackout.
A weight the Carbine cannot handle.
Or a 125 grain five hundred feet faster.

If one was to bring back the rifle great!
It already is designed, there is ammo for it, and CNC can make it cheaper.
But it will be 80years out of phase. And will need to use a lot of plastic to make up for the weight.

cluttonfred said:

The M1 Carbine was never intended to be a battle rifle, it was intended as a short range defensive weapon and was and is very effective in that role.

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You’re back to asserting a rifle is the best handgun on the market...

He's responding to the post which says it's "not adequate". It's been shown to be very adequate..

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I was simply asking about the source for the data, not his opinion, I know where those come from.

Curious from a statistical standpoint, I would assume the case studies using the 30 carbine and expanding bullets to be quite minuscule, thus my curiosity.

Being that the round has been out of service for 46 years and FMJ’s are the most prolific offerings. I like learning things I don’t know.

I like the idea of a 5 or 5.5 lb carbine, small and handy. As for cartridge, 9 mm seems low power for a rifle. The 10mm and 357 Sig are just as expensive as 223 it seems. Is that why AR(10mm) are not a thing? Hopefully, the WWSD 2020 project put forth by InRangeTV will generate interest in making ARs lighter. The first iteration will be expensive, but maybe more companies will join in, competition will bring the price down.

Currently, the Ruger PCC is 6.8 lbs. The Keltec Sub 2000 is just ugly.

cluttonfred said:

I mentioned here years ago that I wished more rifles were available in .30 Carbine. I love the M1 Carbine but they are all pretty long in the tooth now and it's hard to find a good one. The cartridge is fun to shoot and more than adequate at short range. Here's a quick description of what I wish I could find:

• Semi-automatic carbine (probably gas-operated but other actions possible) chambered in .30 Carbine;
• Lightweight (5 lb or less), simple to operate, affordable;
• Ambidextrous operation (cocking/safety/ejection);
• Synthetic stock similar to a Ruger Mini-14 or 10/22 with rear bar(s)/attach points for carrying across the back plus single-point sling attachment points on either side;
• Iron sights standard: aperture rear sight and fluorescent (optionally tritium) front post, both protected;
• Picatinny rail standard for those that want optics, probably forward ("Scout" position) to keep the action clear;
• 5- or 10-round internal box magazine;
• 5- or 10-round stripper clip loading perhaps using wrap-around clips like the Swiss cardboard-and-steel but in a modern thermoplastic for reuse and long life;
• Barrel not threaded for any muzzle device

I know that those last three points are going to rub some folks the wrong way, but hear me out. I think it's important to keep the base model simple and civilian-looking for wide acceptance even in states or countries with restrictive laws or among people not interested in black rifles. There is also the reliability of a solid internal box magazine that is easy to load with loose rounds if need be and the handiness of a rifle with no magazine sticking out. You could still have an optional "tacticool" model or aftermarket offerings with a drop-in adapter for M1 Carbine magazines, pistol grip stock, optional threaded barrel etc.

The result would be a handy carbine far more powerful, accurate, and user-friendly than any pistol or even an AR for home defense, truck gun, even police use.

Thoughts? I've got my flame-proof undies on!

Cheers,

Matthew

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That's an interesting idea but it might be better to rework your idea for an actual rifle cartridge. I'm not sure there is a market for a new rifle for 30 carbine.

Now your idea combined with 7.62 x 39, 300 Blackout, and maybe 350 Legend would be interesting. Many people already hunt with an SKS, so a new more modern American made version out if the box ready for optics and accessories might attract an audience.

Kind of like the semi auto version of an RAR

IMO, the Mini-14 was the death knell for the 30 carbine. Same action, a much more efficient round. Otherwise the 30 carbine would still be very popular, today.

I like the CX4 Storm Carbine. 9mm gives better punch out of the longer barrel, and you can share mags with a 92FS, or a Px4.

Yes a 5 pound (SBR) .300 Blackout is easy and cheap and has better ballistics than a .30M1 Carbine , especially out of a short handy barrel. . Common case head and development allready done, There are a ton of .300BO out there allready, lots of us find it's short barrel performance astounding compared to anything else. My favorute load is 2300 fps 110 grain from an 8" barrel . I doubt a .30 Carbine can come within 600 FPS of that ! That is a huge difference in performance and like others have said the .300BO can handle heavier hunting (or sub sonic ) weights the M1 can't . I like the the M1 carbine since my dad introduced me to it in 1959 and was trained in 1965 ROTC with one , I did not use one in VN, by choice, but used the heck out of it in the 70s on California coastal ranches. I still have a couple good ones and an accurate one currently with a Red Dot on an Ultimak that I used to slaughter livestock thru the 90s up to 50 yards away. The tappet gas system is ok IMHO but not in the same league as more modern approaches. The bedding system is antiquated on the M1 and the design relys on high quality control and finish details which run against a low priced unit working well. Like I said the Taurus CT30 looks good to me, and if made of polymer and die cast and cnc finished alloys could be light and I would buy one ,

I’m of the opinion that the 30 carbine was obsolete before it was created nearly 80 years ago. I don’t really know why people try to hold onto it other than the attraction to the m1 carbine.

What the OP describes sounds a lot like a keltec SU-16 but chambered in 300 blackout.

https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearms/rifles/su16/

Or a flitelite dct

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/fig...r-synthetic-black-finish/FC-854118002551.html

I know what the OP is asking and what he wants. I have wondered the same thing since there is a lot of people who like the little 30 carbine rifle. But they are silly expensive now. A modern gun that is light weight and fires the round sounds like a good idea. And it probably was many years ago when there was a lot of cheap surplus 30 carbine ammo to be had. But now the ammo cost sort of makes this a dead end idea.

I scratched this itch by just buying two rifles. A Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm and a Marlin 357 mag rifle. The 357 is my most favorite gun. By reloading I can push a 125gr bullet well past 2,000fps or a 158gr bullet to 1,850fps. But brass life is limited so I don't do that any more. If I need more power than standard loads I just use a bigger gun.

A lever action has no magazine hanging out the bottom so it doesn't have the marshal look of a black rifle. But it still holds 9 rounds of 357 or 10 rounds of 38 special. The Camp Carbine is accurate enough that I can keep all my shots on a mans chest at 200 yards. Heads shots at 100 yards. And fired in a house it doesn't have the blast or muzzle flash of a bottle necked round like a 223. The PCC are the modern answer to the old 30 carbine rifle.

cluttonfred said:

The M1 Carbine was never intended to be a battle rifle, it was intended as a short range defensive weapon and was and is very effective in that role. While I am sure some soldiers ditched it as a pipsqueak gun, others sought it out even if they were issued something else. .30 Carbine jacketed soft point and jacketed hollow point ammunition is widely available and made by most major manufacturers, see www.ammoseek.com.

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Yep. Basing your opinion on a rounds effectiveness while loaded with FMJ bullets is to short change the round. The 30 Carbine loaded with soft point or hollow points should provide you with a much better round. FMJ is just fine for target shooting and general practice and playing around. But if you want to hunt with one or keep it loaded for SD then use better ammo. You're not in the army and restricted to ball ammo.

The .30 carbine is kind of an anomaly. It was purpose designed and built as one of the very first PDW rifles. The problem seems to be that the M1 Carbine and the .30 carbine are inextricably tied together, and for all intents and purposes synonymous with each other. That keeps the M1 carbine (even new production) from being developed further to use more effective rounds; and the .30 carbine round from being used in other weapons in which it would be very effective.

Another thing is that the .30 carbine round is a little too long to fit in most semiautomatic handguns, and a little anemic when compared to actual rifle rounds. As effective as it was in three wars (on both sides), the .30/M1 pair is what it is; and there doesn’t seem to be much industry interest in further development. The closest current manufacture gun that is close to what you want is the Inland M30-C; but it ain’t inexpensive, and it’s a little heavier than you want.

On a side note, I’d really like to see someone make components to build an AR-15 in .30 carbine.

someguy2800 said:

I’m of the opinion that the 30 carbine was obsolete before it was created nearly 80 years ago. I don’t really know why people try to hold onto it other than the attraction to the m1 carbine.

What the OP describes sounds a lot like a keltec SU-16 but chambered in 300 blackout.

https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearms/rifles/su16/

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No .... it really wasn't obsolete when it was developed ... it was fairly novel. It is obsolete now. Sorry. As I said several posts above, I like mine a lot. But the design is old .... and .300 AAC Blackout is a better round and much more available with a number of loadings and above posters who like it are certainly justified for appreciating it.

In part I agree with Ratshooter. I have a Rossi 92 carbine in.357 MAG/38SPL. I own bolt guns, ARs and a PTR91...that little lightweight Rossi is my favorite shooter...38SPL for plinking and 357 for close range hunting or serious work. Don't need to carry mags around, can reload and go as needed fits conveniently anywhere.

Will .30 Carbine drop a deer? Effectively, or would that be considered inhumane? I'm not going to go try it - just curious as that is a common benchmark for rifle effectiveness.

film495 said:

Will .30 Carbine drop a deer? Effectively, or would that be considered inhumane? I'm not going to go try it - just curious as that is a common benchmark for rifle effectiveness.

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With handloads, probably out to about 75 yards.

I like the basic idea outlined in the OP, but I feel it's served well by current manufacturer carbines.
The Minis weigh about 6.5lbs and would be MY choice.
The fightlight in .350 legend of 300aac would be a pretty good modern iteration of the carbine.

The 30carbs neat, but I WILL call it underpowered for anything over light game when you can get any number of other rounds with similar recoil and better terminal ballistics.

I've killed a 1/2 dozen or so Axis with the 30 carb and Winchester softpoints. I'd rather have a .223, or other mini round.

film495 said:

Will .30 Carbine drop a deer? Effectively, or would that be considered inhumane? I'm not going to go try it - just curious as that is a common benchmark for rifle effectiveness.

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Even a lowly 22lr can harvest venison, but practically speaking it'll work but not quite as well as 357mag out of a carbine. Keep it within bow hunting ranges and it should put meat in the freezer.

Call me crazy, but I have always wanted a Mini-14 that had an internal magazine fed by stripper clips or maybe even fed by enbloc's. Eight to ten rounds would be fine and the rifle would be very handy and carry similarly to a lever action, although slightly more porcine. I realize I could just use the five round magazine, but I think a fixed mag could add rounds in the same space.

ECVMatt said:

Call me crazy, but I have always wanted a Mini-14 that had an internal magazine fed by stripper clips or maybe even fed by enbloc's. Eight to ten rounds would be fine and the rifle would be very handy and carry similarly to a lever action, although slightly more porcine. I realize I could just use the five round magazine, but I think a fixed mag could add rounds in the same space.

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A mini garand WOULD be awesome...
To the OP, I don't believe the role of the m1 carbine is a dead thing, just that the individual design languished while other rifle designs moved forward. There will always be a market for short handy rifles. Just don't know if there is a justifiable reason to have one in the 30 carbine cartridge unless it's an M1

https://dailycaller.com/2014/04/23/30-carbine-handguns/

I think this summarizes where the round went into history and did not take off after WW2. If it was more effective out of a handgun, people might like to pair a handgun with a rifle, but - looks like it never worked effectively in the handguns that were developed for it. Funny, because people get 9mm carbines to pair with handguns, but - the .30 carbine ballistics womp 9mm. Looks like it was just designed in a big hurry to meet a need, and it worked, but - after that - it sort of fell to the ages.