Virginia's next move

Thibaut said:

Voters chose party over candidate in Virginia. Repeatedly. That is what led to this (and oncoming) situations.

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There is a great rising of People now that are going against the People that put him into office. Any legislation from the result might actually come back to bite them. No more free money of which Northam has been giving away the house and promising more. In Virgina many of us are looking for a Leader that will stop all the give aways, the free rides.
It has really never been about gun control, it is about Power, false Entitlements and free money. You have to remember, his base were ready to lynch him not that long agnce the free gifts are gone, are free money promises not keep, they will get rid of him without a second thought.

Cracks are beginning to form among the Democrats in the Virginia legislature on the gun issue. This is coming from surprising quarters: Lee Carter (an avowed Democratic Socialist) and Danica Roem (a transsexual) have both announced that they will not vote for the AWB as currently proposed.

Went to my local BOS meeting the other night and the turn-out was great! The folks who spoke were passionate and fairly erudite. It was interesting to note that several of the supervisors, who are allegedly conservative, were ambivalent about the movement a week or so ago but now are "super" supportive. I swear... anyone who shows an interest in being a politician should automatically be banned from seeking office...

In a way, I'm hoping the Dems go ahead full steam because anytime they (the Left) capitulate or "compromise", we (the POG) seem to grow complacent and happy that they only infringed a little instead of a lot...

There is a 30 page thread over on AR15.com about 'lobby day' on 1/20/2020
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Virginia-There-s-Battle-Lines-Being-Drawn/5-2278351/?page=30

These dudes are organizing. and they should be.
Dudes have already stated they are bringing crew served weapons and Carl Gustovs...

If I was planning it I would have our coat and tie/Sunday best dressed members go inside the building and then have 5-10-20 thousand members with long guns/full battle-rattle in nice, orderly ranks surrounding the building in an ever-expanding circle.

Cannons/crew served weapons and Carl Gustav front and center would send one hell of a message. When the meeting ends, shift ranks and line both sides of every exiting street for miles. Let’s see how the Redcoats like driving through that.

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people are talking about driving down from all sorts of states.

You may consider donating to the cause:
https://vcdl.org/

As a dude stranded in CA, we will be watching this VERY closely.

Corpral_Agarn said:

These dudes are organizing. and they should be.
Dudes have already stated they are bringing crew served weapons and Carl Gustovs...

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I still think that an armed confrontation is the wrong approach. The media are going to portray this as another Charlottesville. Heaven help us if somebody gets killed.

AlexanderA said:

I still think that an armed confrontation is the wrong approach. The media are going to portray this as another Charlottesville. Heaven help us if somebody gets killed.

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I agree.

I sincerely hope (and predict) that it's just another cold day in VA where folks get to meet their neighbors.

The idea behind the demonstration appears is a show of force, that the people remember what the constitution is and that they will not stand for these draconian laws (taking effect, if passed, in July), but people who are not coming armed are predicted to show as well.

I think folks are tired of protesting, holding signs, etc, while their rights are stolen from them.

I think that the threat of using the National Guard to force the police to enforce the laws has further motivated people to show up.

hso said:

Terrible idea to show up armed. That plays directly into the hands of Antis.

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Maybe.

I am not sure if it's good or not. Just posting what I am picking up.

I am encouraged by the amount of energy being put towards this, though.

Looks like the plot thickens?
https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/le...xCtD0LN8YvFdULVbrF0RanIjcpL5Bq5JkJaPfwJj3ZRVU

best I can tell this is a bill to terminate .gov employees (who don't enforce/do their jobs):

B. Any public safety employee [Lined out]of the Commonwealth, or of any county, city, town or other political subdivision thereof, or of any agency of any one of them[/Lined out], who, in concert with two or more other such employees, for the purpose of obstructing, impeding or suspending any activity or operation of his employing agency or any other governmental agency, strikes or willfully refuses to perform the duties of his employment shall, by such action, be deemed to have terminated his employment and shall thereafter be ineligible for employment in any position or capacity during the next twelve 12 months by the Commonwealth, or any county, city, town or other political subdivision of the Commonwealth, or by any department or agency of any of them.

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I'm not a lawyer and I don't know how it affects this whole "2nd amendment sanctuary" thing.

Corpral_Agarn said:

Looks like the plot thickens?
https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/le...xCtD0LN8YvFdULVbrF0RanIjcpL5Bq5JkJaPfwJj3ZRVU

best I can tell this is a bill to terminate .gov employees (who don't enforce/do their jobs):

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This law is already on the books. (The purpose is to ban labor strikes by police.) On the surface, it looks like all they're doing is re-enacting it with with some very minor editorial changes. But in reality, it's a place holder for something more extensive (if and when that's deemed to be needed). These bills are shots across the bow directed at the pro-gun forces.

AlexanderA said:

This law is already on the books. (The purpose is to ban labor strikes by police.) On the surface, it looks like all they're doing is re-enacting it with with some very minor editorial changes. But in reality, it's a place holder for something more extensive (if and when that's deemed to be needed). These bills are shots across the bow directed at the pro-gun forces.

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that's what I gathered as well.
ETA: didn't know it was already on the books.

Never thought it was going to be VA.

Wild times.

AlexanderA said:

This law is already on the books. (The purpose is to ban labor strikes by police.) On the surface, it looks like all they're doing is re-enacting it with with some very minor editorial changes. But in reality, it's a place holder for something more extensive (if and when that's deemed to be needed). These bills are shots across the bow directed at the pro-gun forces.

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The governor might be overplaying his hand. The bureaucracy can passively sabotage the implementation of any policy. A general threat to the bureaucracy might have blowback that reaches far beyond the gun control issue.

Zendude said:

The governor might be overplaying his hand. The bureaucracy can passively sabotage the implementation of any policy. A general threat to the bureaucracy might have blowback that reaches far beyond the gun control issue.

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In my personal contacts with the local police, here in northern Virginia, I've come to the conclusion that the rank and file are not antigun (unlike most of the voters around here). The police around here would not be enthusiastic about enforcing the governor's agenda -- and this is the most antigun part of the state. The governor and his minions are going to have a tough time implementing their antigun plans, even if they pass the legislature. And there's evidence that even some of the Democratic legislators are having second thoughts (see my relevant post earlier in this thread). So this is the good news.

The huge turnout of gun owners at sessions of local governing bodies is making a difference. We need to keep this up. But, please, do not show up armed and in full battle gear. Yes, I know that if you go over to ar15.com, you'll see plans for 25,000 armed demonstrators, many from out of state, in front of the Capitol on Jan. 20. Lobbying the legislators one-on-one is a good idea. But a massive armed confrontation with the State Police goes beyond counterproductive -- even if it doesn't turn violent. And if it does turn violent, we're finished. With a crowd like that, it would be easy for an antigun provocateur to fire a few shots at the police, setting the whole thing off. And it would be impossible to screen the crowd for provocateurs.

The organizers must insist that the participants leave their guns at home for this event. There is too much at stake otherwise.

AlexanderA said:

massive armed confrontation with the State Police goes beyond counterproductive

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Unless one is willing to actually start a war -- for which this is neither the time or place/and would produce nothing but suicidal Press & photographs akin to Kent State but in reverse .......

I cannot imagine a dumber move.

AlexanderA said:

this is the most antigun part of the state.

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Nothing like a college town for over-educated naivety

Zendude said:

Sounds like rhetoric. I’m not sure how the Guard would enforce a registration requirement. Since most in the Guard tend to live in rural areas, they might also be unwilling to enforce such laws.

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I hear this a lot. I don't think it will play out as gun owners predict. The American soldier follows orders. Period. (Barring an order to fire on an unarmed crowd, etc.) I don't think there will be mass defections of soldiers; I certainly wouldn't plan on it.

As far as enforcing registration, yeah that's a challenge. However, I submit this for your approval: 30k armed civilians show up to protest gun laws. 1st Amendment right to peaceful assembly does not apply; once the guns come out, you're no longer a peaceful assembly-you're an armed mob. Governor responds by declaring a state of emergency and martial law. Constitution no longer applies-UCMJ is enforce. (No more 4th amendment protection.) VA National Guard follows orders and goes door to door searching for contraband weapons, forces compliance with registration or confiscates said weapons.

I think what I've laid out here is fairly viable and legally plausible scenario. One thing I've overlooked is that President Trump could nationalize the VA National Guard by calling them into Active Duty service, thereby denying their use to the governor. If that happened, however, Posse Comitatus would kick in as federal troops can not be used to enforce local/state laws.

Seeing all the anti-Northam anger now evident in Virginia, I have to ask one question: Where were all these angry people before the election?

As note above." Where were all these angry people BEFORE the election?" These people being Virginia voters of course.
The horse is out of the barn and now they wonder,....what happened!
Just goes to show what happens when the one man, one vote falls on it`s behind. No shows/ empathy. Ruled the day.
Now, like in the old Western movies, the mob is riled up. Everybody yelling, we was robbed!
The non voters can thank the voters for this mess.

Sav .250 said:

As note above." Where were all these angry people BEFORE the election?" These people being Virginia voters of course.
The horse is out of the barn and now they wonder,....what happened!

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I can tell you what happened when I went to the polls. My antigun Delegate and Senator were running unopposed! The best that I could do was to not vote at all in those races. (Writing in a random name wouldn't have made any difference.)

And I was highly aware of the gun issue. Think of the many gun owners who were not as plugged in.

What we had was a systemic failure of gigantic proportions. Gun owners are finally waking up, but it may be too late.

I honestly do not know how reflective Virginia is (now or in future) of the nation at the polls but I love the state and its many faces and I so hate to see what could likely be transient voting affect a common sense approach to lawmaking. One can only hope that there will be a sensible backlash to some of the bizarre political developments at hand.

I'm getting a growing feeling of dread as I read about what's in the offing for January 20th. This was originally supposed to be a traditional VCDL "lobby day," when gun owners could meet one-on-one with their legislators. Instead, in response to the high level of anger at what's going on with the governor's plans, it's turning into a mass demonstration with thousands of armed people descending on Richmond from all over the country. No doubt most will be totally responsible, but this will also be a magnet for all sorts of crazies and provocateurs. If someone starts shooting it could turn into a massacre. Even if there's isn't a shooting, the circus will be grist for nonstop antigun propaganda in the media. Maybe the VCDL should monitor the situation and, if it looks like things are getting out of hand, disassociate itself from what's about to happen.

AlexanderA said:

Instead, in response to the high level of anger at what's going on with the governor's plans, it's turning into a mass demonstration with thousands of armed people descending on Richmond from all over the country. No doubt most will be totally responsible, but this will also be a magnet for all sorts of crazies and provocateurs.

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You still don’t want to make the anti-gun Governor and Politicians angry do you? Appeasement has never worked in the long run.

That's a cliche. Winning elections and/or convincing legislators to vote in the manner you want is what is important. So, what style of demonstration will do this? Or is it just to feel good and generate some "Lost Cause" moment that does not affect the legislative outcome.

Sometimes I feel folks prefer a righteous loss and wailing and lamentations over a beer than an workable strategy. In TX, constitutional carry went down the drain (and campus carry almost did) because of actions of the open carry, rifle folks parading around.

You want to influence folks who may be amenable to voting your way. Sure the governor isn't but I've heard from the ILA the vote count is close, which strategy move it the way you want, as compared to a short term feel good dance festival.

AlexanderA said:

...it may be too late.

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For Virginia? Perhaps. For the rest of the nation there may be a silver lining. There isn't a gun owner in America who isn't painfully aware of what's happening in Virginia. This may have done more to call American gun owners to the polls than anything in recent history-far more than Washington's I-16 whatever. If another state turns blue (Texas?), it won't be because gun owners stayed home. If an anti-gun presidential candidate wins in November, it won't be because gun owners stayed home. I think apathy just went on vacation.

On using the National Guard to enforce gun control laws in Virginia.

I am adding this to the conversation because of recent reports out of Virginia.
1. WTKR Channel 3 reported "Gov. Ralph Northam said Wednesday localities could face consequences if law enforcement officers don't enforce gun laws."
Note that in the report that the governor did not say what those consequences might be.
2. The Washington Examiner article 'The law is the law': Virginia Democrats float prosecution and National Guard deployment if police don't enforce gun control
quotes Delegate Donald McEachin saying, “And ultimately, I'm not the governor, but the governor may have to nationalize the National Guard to enforce the law,” he said. “That's his call, because I don't know how serious these counties are and how severe the violations of law will be. But that's obviously an option he has.”
3. Firearms commentator AWR Hawkins has mis-characterized McEachin's statement by saying "Rep. Donald McEachin (D-VA) suggests Gov. Ralph Northam (D) can activate the National Guard and use it to force Second Amendment sanctuary counties to honor gun control."

My comments here are based on 26 years as a National Guard officer. I claim no special expertise in law enforcement.

First, if the governor chooses to go heavy-handed in enforcing gun controls in a 2A Sanctuary county or town, he may, indeed, use the State Police or call members of the Virginia National Guard to active duty. Note that in this capacity the National Guard is a state law enforcement organization, not a Federal military organization, and provisions of the Federal Posse Comitatus law do not apply.
[McEachin made a technical mistake in referring to "nationalize." That status is only for duty when called by the President or Congress.]

Second, the vast majority of Guard members called to such duty are likely to follow the governor's orders, since legally, properly enacted laws are not considered unconstitutional until so adjudged by the courts. Thus, the Adjutant General and Guard members would follow the governor's directives as "lawful orders." Granted, a few members might claim personal conscience and that the laws and orders are unconstitutional, but overall the Guard will comply. The last major example of this was the great confiscation mess in Louisiana after Hurricane Rita, at least until General Honoré came in with good sense.

Third, unlike what Hawkins said, the Guard would not "force the counties to honor gun control." You are not going to see State Troopers or National Guard soldiers holding sheriffs' deputies at gunpoint and making them go to residents' homes. Instead, if so ordered, the troopers and soldiers would be the ones going directly to the residents to deal with ERPO Red Flag orders, etc.

Fourth, I really expect any consequences carried out by the governor to be fiscal, finding ways to penalize the subject counties and towns by withholding state funds they had been expecting.


As with many others here, I dearly hope we do not see the situation come close to any of the above.