Ballistic Gel Guru's and Bullet Performance Guys, etc.- Any Idea What Bullet Did This???

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35 Whelen

35 Whelen

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These are photos someone shared with me of a whitetail someone killed and damage done by the bullet. All I know is it was shot with a handgun. I think it's a somewhat rare look at actual damage done by a bullet from a handgun. Notice the lateral damage around the hole in the lungs and the coagulated blood scattered about on the entrails. Interesting stuff!

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Now...any guesses as to what caliber/weight bullet and velocity might cause this sort of damage and how it might equate to performance in ballistic gel?

35W
 
Compared to the damage I have seen done to the deer I have shot with a rifle that damage isn't very impressive. With most rifle rounds the lungs would have just been giblets. But I guess whatever round it was it worked.
 
Ratshooter said:
Compared to the damage I have seen done to the deer I have shot with a rifle that damage isn't very impressive. With most rifle rounds the lungs would have just been giblets. But I guess whatever round it was it worked.
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The damage, particularly to the lungs, compares to my experiences and observations from when I hunted as a kid with a 6mm and 100 gr. handloads, as far as wound size is concerned.

This post is interesting to say the least.

Posts with "Ballistic Gel", "Best Defense Bullet" or "Bullet Energy" in the title result pages of formulas, hypothesis, and links to pages of blocks of gel being murdered. But submit evidence of what bullets really do and well....crickets. :thumbdown:

Maybe @MaxP and @CraigC will drift over here this weekend. I probably should've posted this in the revolver section to begin with!

35W
 
35 Whelen said:
The damage, particularly to the lungs, compares to my experiences and observations from when I hunted as a kid with a 6mm and 100 gr. handloads, as far as wound size is concerned.
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I have only shot one deer with a 243 and that was right at dark thirty and by the time I was gutting the deer it was dark and I was just slashing and rolling guts out. No time to look at bullet damage. But I have looked at lots of other gut piles and most were blown up organs. I have used a 7x57 for most of my deer or a 30-06 or 7-08. I have never made a handgun kill but did make a 44 mag from a Marlin and the organ damage was not as extensive as a bottle neck round.

35 Whelen said:
Posts with "Ballistic Gel", "Best Defense Bullet" or "Bullet Energy" in the title result pages of formulas, hypothesis, and links to pages of blocks of gel being murdered. But submit evidence of what bullets really do and well....crickets. :thumbdown:
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Yes. Now the experts come out and the opinions flow freely. Sorry I can't help you with what round did the damage in your photos. Maybe @MaxP or @CraigC will chime in since they have lots of handgun hunting experience. I have checked back here a couple of times to see if you found out what round made the damage. The range to the target would have a huge affect on the amount of damage from a handgun. A shot from a 44 mag at 20 yards will most likely look a lot different than a shot from a 44 mag at 100 yards.
 
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My best guess it was a 44 mag with a soft point bullet since its such a common hunting combo. But the damage from such a powerful set up just isn't that impressive. A hard cast SWC bullet would have most likely done as much damage. And made an exit wound which I am guessing this round didn't.

I did kill a middle sized goat with a 357 mag and at the shot the goat took off so I landed a little further back than I intended. The bullet went in through the left rear leg and exited between the right shoulder and brisket. That was with a 158gr hard cast SWC bullet and a mid range (1150fps) load. But there was no real organ damage. Just a hole through everything.
 
I will venture a guess it was something in the .357 to .44 Mag range probably with an expanding bullet. A large hole like that indicates some expansion in my estimation.

As soon as photobucket starts working again I will post up some handgun damage photos that will perhaps change your opinions of the damage capabilities of some caliber/bullet combinations.
 
Looks very similar to what I had out of a 4” 44mag with jhp bullets with scored jacket. On mine, the petals opened up almost exactly to where the scoring on the jacket stopped and produced a mushroomed bullet nearly 3/4” wide. The hit on the vitals here looks smaller, but the hit on the rib cage is very very similar. I don’t think anybody can say with certainty other than the hunter as to what was used, but my guess is that it was in between a .357 and 44 mag. Purely a WAG but I would be inclined to guess 10mm auto or 41 mag just because I have experience with .357, 10mm, and 44mag. The hit has characteristics of all 3. One thing noteworthy is that there wasnt a huge amount of expansion, but there clearly was some expansion, leading me to believe a well built JHP or a heavy lead slug.
 
Looks like impact velocity was in the 1050-1200 fps range and bullet ended up about 1/2" in diameter.
Could have just as easily been a 180gr 357 JHP as a 400gr 480 Ruger.
 
I'd guess either small caliber expanding (10/357) or larger caliber (44/45) lead with little speed. I don't follow or read much about gel testing but I've used 10mm and 44 for many years and seen plenty of deer insides from them. Xtps usually do about the same if they miss all the bone and dont expand all that great which is why I like them for hunting. I'd like to see the other sides hole assuming it came out since there is no recovered bullet picture.

That said I've killed deer in the same day with the same rifle and bullets and had completely different results as far as damage. So it's a guess at best.
 
.44 Rem Mag 300 gr XTP JHP out of a 5.5-8.375" Barrel.

No idea really.
 
OK...time for full disclosure. I posted this in the manner I did hoping to get some discussion from the ballistic gel guys some of whom who think they know what bullets do in muscle, tissue and bone. I actually shot the deer myself about three weeks ago, but didn't want to say so, because a search of my posts will show what I hunt with; .44/.45 revolvers, thus making it easy to guess!

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crestoncowboy said:
I'd guess either small caliber expanding (10/357) or larger caliber (44/45) lead with little speed. I don't follow or read much about gel testing but I've used 10mm and 44 for many years and seen plenty of deer insides from them. Xtps usually do about the same if they miss all the bone and dont expand all that great which is why I like them for hunting. I'd like to see the other sides hole assuming it came out since there is no recovered bullet picture.

That said I've killed deer in the same day with the same rifle and bullets and had completely different results as far as damage. So it's a guess at best.
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@crestoncowboy got the closest. The projectile was a 288 gr. cast SWC (RCBS 45-270SAA) with an MV of 983 fps, a very accurate load, FWIW. Range was 41 yds and the entrance wound can be seen near the base of the cartridge, impact velocity would've been about 940 fps. The bullet angled slightly back and exited between a couple of ribs.

I thought the wound channel was pretty remarkable for such a relatively slow bullet, and gives a real world view of just how destructive such projectiles can be. I'd have no qualms about using such a load for self defense.

35W
 
35 Whelen said:
I thought the wound channel was pretty remarkable for such a relatively slow bullet, and gives a real world view of just how destructive such projectiles can be.
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I've said the same on here for years. Whitetail deer are puny. Our whitetail are even on the big side of the species and they are easy to kill. I've killed many with cast bullets in 10mm and 44. I've also used HP bullets from federal fusion to the XTP (which I view as very close to cast). Unless I hit a bone there is almost no difference in an xtp and a hard cast or LFP bullet.
 
Our average whitetail is not that small (Deep South but Michigan/Wisconsin Genetics). Most of the 1.5 year old bucks go North of 150 lb and 200+ lb 3.5 year olds are not uncommon.

It does look similar to what I get out of a .38 WCF (38/40) out of an 1892 Win. 180 gr LRN-FP at 1300 fps.

PS I get repeatedly told it's underpowered for deer. Fortunately no one has told them yet.
 
94045 said:
Our average whitetail is not that small (Deep South but Michigan/Wisconsin Genetics). Most of the 1.5 year old bucks go North of 150 lb and 200+ lb 3.5 year olds are not uncommon.

It does look similar to what I get out of a .38 WCF (38/40) out of an 1892 Win. 180 gr LRN-FP at 1300 fps.

PS I get repeatedly told it's underpowered for deer. Fortunately no one has told them yet.
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Our deer down here vary quite a bit. The first buck I killed after we bought this place was on older buck that I had a hell of a time getting in the bed of the pickup by myself, after he was gutted. The processor told me he dressed at about 150 lbs. The one above dressed at probably 120 lbs., maybe a bit less.

Funny you mentioned the 38-40. Folks poo-poo it as a hunting cartridge, yet they think the Glock 20 10mm is great for bear protection! 'Splain that!

My load in my ancient '73 Winchesters is a 192 gr. cast FP which over a case-full of Swiss 3Fg chronographs at 1425 fps out of the 24" barrels. I shot a buck with one of those rifles/loads 3 years ago. He ran out there 40 yds. or so and plopped over dead, never once complaining. 9.0 grs. of Herco with the same bullet averaged 1299 fps.

35W
 
35 Whelen said:
Our deer down here vary quite a bit. The first buck I killed after we bought this place was on older buck that I had a hell of a time getting in the bed of the pickup by myself, after he was gutted. The processor told me he dressed at about 150 lbs. The one above dressed at probably 120 lbs., maybe a bit less.

Funny you mentioned the 38-40. Folks poo-poo it as a hunting cartridge, yet they think the Glock 20 10mm is great for bear protection! 'Splain that!

My load in my ancient '73 Winchesters is a 192 gr. cast FP which over a case-full of Swiss 3Fg chronographs at 1425 fps out of the 24" barrels. I shot a buck with one of those rifles/loads 3 years ago. He ran out there 40 yds. or so and plopped over dead, never once complaining. 9.0 grs. of Herco with the same bullet averaged 1299 fps.

35W
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I know I'm loaded light for a 1892 but I try to be nice to it seeing as it's well over 100 years old and belonged to my Great Grandfather. It is a Smokeless Gun though.

That's about the results I get in deer although 60 yards is a long shot where I use that rifle.
 
35 Whelen,

How far did that one go before collapsing?
 
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The wound trauma in the photos is unremarkable and matches the wound profile I would expect to see in ordnance gelatin.

I'm surprised the exit hole in the intercostal muscle tissue is about the same diameter of the bullet - about half an inch. Usually it's larger because the muscle tissue between ribs is restrained. It isn't free to stretch and dissipate energy and rebound. It usually tears and ruptures, increasing permanent disruption.

The lung tissue surrounding the bullet hole is bruised from the temporary cavity. The permanent cavity is a nice clean hole with a sharp edge, due to the flat nose of the bullet and sharp shoulder contour.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
The wound trauma in the photos is unremarkable and matches the wound profile I would expect to see in ordnance gelatin.

I'm surprised the exit hole in the intercostal muscle tissue is about the same diameter of the bullet - about half an inch. Usually it's larger because the muscle tissue between ribs is restrained. It isn't free to stretch and dissipate energy and rebound. It usually tears and ruptures, increasing permanent disruption.

The lung tissue surrounding the bullet hole is bruised from the temporary cavity. The permanent cavity is a nice clean hole with a sharp edge, due to the flat nose of the bullet and sharp shoulder contour.
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Unremarkable...compared to what??? If you have photos of damage to internal organs along with caliber, bullet weight and style, impact velocity, etc., I'd love to see it/them, it'd be fun to compare.

Oh, and you should be surprised by the exit hole, because if you look carefully at pattern of the fractures in the rib, you would realize that's the entrance hole. :)

35W
 
Oh, and you should be surprised by the exit hole, because if you look carefully at pattern of the fractures in the rib, you would realize that's the entrance hole.
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The bullet exited intercostal tissue. The photo view is the exit side of this structure, hence "exit hole". I noticed the rib fractures just below the hole. It appears the bullet may have nicked the rib. Hard to tell from the photo.

"Unremarkable" because the wound trauma is entirely consistent with this type of handgun bullet.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
I don't think anybody refers to the entry side holes as "exit holes" just because the bullet exited a structure, LOL.
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I can see where Shawn Dodson is coming from, because wounds to an anatomical structure (which has been perforated) can be described in terms of an entrance and exit. Probably not helpful for us to get too bogged down with this terminology.
 
As regards the size of the hole, there are several pitfalls in trying to attach a significant finding as regards the size of the breach:

1) The breach looks elliptical to me, which suggests the path of the projectile was not 90 degrees to the inside surface of the thoracic cavity.
2) I can't tell to what degree the rib has influenced the trajectory of the bullet, or indeed the bullet itself.

What would be nice is to have a dowel-rod indication of how that near side thoracic wall was perforated. Also pictures of the recovered bullet would be interesting!
 
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