The wonderful and plentiful Swiss ammo has dried up and should not be a basis for selection. There are many alternative suppliers, just as there are for 30/06 as it has not been a GI round for more than 50 years.
New to Milsurps and rifles in general.
- Thread starter TheFlynn01
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Random 8
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https://simpsonltd.com/long-guns/military-rifles/?_bc_fsnf=1&brand=315
This is a trusted and respected source for all milsurp rifles. Our Swiss Rifle shooting club handles our imports through them. They may not be the cheapest, but their descriptions are detailed and accurate. If you give them an old fashioned phone call, they will walk you through the process of purchase and shipment to your FFL (dealer) and find a rifle that best suits your needs.
This is a trusted and respected source for all milsurp rifles. Our Swiss Rifle shooting club handles our imports through them. They may not be the cheapest, but their descriptions are detailed and accurate. If you give them an old fashioned phone call, they will walk you through the process of purchase and shipment to your FFL (dealer) and find a rifle that best suits your needs.
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Dave DeLaurant
Member
You may be a candidate for a stick-on or clip on aperture for your glasses -- something like the Merit optical disc or this kind of rig:
https://www.creedmoorsports.com/pro...MI_oHYh7XP5wIV2CCtBh0BJAtDEAYYAiABEgIBqvD_BwE
Getting an aperture closer to your eye improves your depth of focus and can help get around some sight-related issues. Experiment a bit and have a chat with your eye doc -- he may have some good suggestions.
I've developed a serious case of age related far-sightedness and had to invest in the fancy shooting specs shown in my avatar to be able to make out the rear sight notch in many milsurp rifles.
Garandimal
member
Well, then you will have the same problem w/ the 1903-A3 well.
The trick to aperture sights is to get as close as possible to them.
The optics of them act like an infinite focal plane 1X scope - as the aperture will "look" at the front sight.
No need to align the front and rear sights on a good aperture like the Springfields, just get the front sight generally in the middle of the aperture, and treat it like a cross-hair.
GR
I have posted probably too much about milsurps over the years and experiences with quite a few. But the O/P wanted to know about the two rifles primarily.
The 1903 or its 03a3 brother, are fine rifles as long as you avoid the low number 03's because of the documented problems. So is the K31 and commercial ammo is widely available for the 03 and somewhat less so for the K31. Longterm, with the K31, you should be prepared to handload if you must and if you want anything other than the standard GP11 or its commercial clone.
The 03a3 is easier to shoot if you are used to aperture sights from the get go. The 1903 and K31 share open sights which are great if you are young and like a full field of vision. If you did hunt with iron sights, it is often easier with open sights if you know how to use them for leading animals--I find ap sights harder to lead with as they block part of your vision but maybe that is just me. There are expensive diopter sights for the K31 as aftermarket attachments and I believe that a claw type no gunsmithing mount is available for the K31. A place to buy new accessories like diopter sights, scope mounts, etc. for the K31 and other Swiss rifles is Swiss Products incorporated. https://www.swissproductsusa.com/
The cheapest way to get a 1903 or 03a3 would be to buy a sporter made from one. Restoring either is relatively easy if you avoid the sporters where they tried to grind on the receiver, etc. I have seen 03 or 03a3 sporters for about 1/2 to 1/3 of the price of a complete rifle.
It is difficult and expensive to restore a K31 because of the related parts. I have done one and it was a pain.
One last thing to worry about, quite a few 1903's or 03a3's floating around are based on restored drill rifles which can be an issue. There were also some with cast receivers but the rest are GI parts such as Federal Ordnance which essentially used brand new GI rifle parts and put them on a crappy quality cast receiver. Some blowups have been recorded. What is more common with either drill rifle restorations or cast receiver types is relative softness of the receiver--the drill rifles often had parts welded so the drill teams could not load live ammo into them. Some folks broke the welds like the barrel/receiver tack weld, and the bolt release, in order to free the deconned bolt and remove the plugged barrel. The 64 dollar question is whether or not the original tack welds damaged the heat treatment of the receiver in a critical way by softening the receiver or burning the steel around the weld. Often, these recovered drill rifles were parkerized and painted so as to hide the weld discolorations after these were ground off. To avoid this, look for receivers with honest wear than something that looks brand new but is sold cheap. Avoid the Federal Ordnance rifles unless you have a genuine receiver to put the parts to which will require the services of a gunsmith.
Both the Springfield and the Swiss K31 are great ways to start getting into these rifles. I suggest that if there are no local dealers, deal with established ones like Simpsons mentioned above, CheckPoint Charlie's is another one that I have dealt with, and I believe there is a dealer that specializes in Swiss rifles in Colorado but the name escapes me.
The 1903 or its 03a3 brother, are fine rifles as long as you avoid the low number 03's because of the documented problems. So is the K31 and commercial ammo is widely available for the 03 and somewhat less so for the K31. Longterm, with the K31, you should be prepared to handload if you must and if you want anything other than the standard GP11 or its commercial clone.
The 03a3 is easier to shoot if you are used to aperture sights from the get go. The 1903 and K31 share open sights which are great if you are young and like a full field of vision. If you did hunt with iron sights, it is often easier with open sights if you know how to use them for leading animals--I find ap sights harder to lead with as they block part of your vision but maybe that is just me. There are expensive diopter sights for the K31 as aftermarket attachments and I believe that a claw type no gunsmithing mount is available for the K31. A place to buy new accessories like diopter sights, scope mounts, etc. for the K31 and other Swiss rifles is Swiss Products incorporated. https://www.swissproductsusa.com/
The cheapest way to get a 1903 or 03a3 would be to buy a sporter made from one. Restoring either is relatively easy if you avoid the sporters where they tried to grind on the receiver, etc. I have seen 03 or 03a3 sporters for about 1/2 to 1/3 of the price of a complete rifle.
It is difficult and expensive to restore a K31 because of the related parts. I have done one and it was a pain.
One last thing to worry about, quite a few 1903's or 03a3's floating around are based on restored drill rifles which can be an issue. There were also some with cast receivers but the rest are GI parts such as Federal Ordnance which essentially used brand new GI rifle parts and put them on a crappy quality cast receiver. Some blowups have been recorded. What is more common with either drill rifle restorations or cast receiver types is relative softness of the receiver--the drill rifles often had parts welded so the drill teams could not load live ammo into them. Some folks broke the welds like the barrel/receiver tack weld, and the bolt release, in order to free the deconned bolt and remove the plugged barrel. The 64 dollar question is whether or not the original tack welds damaged the heat treatment of the receiver in a critical way by softening the receiver or burning the steel around the weld. Often, these recovered drill rifles were parkerized and painted so as to hide the weld discolorations after these were ground off. To avoid this, look for receivers with honest wear than something that looks brand new but is sold cheap. Avoid the Federal Ordnance rifles unless you have a genuine receiver to put the parts to which will require the services of a gunsmith.
Both the Springfield and the Swiss K31 are great ways to start getting into these rifles. I suggest that if there are no local dealers, deal with established ones like Simpsons mentioned above, CheckPoint Charlie's is another one that I have dealt with, and I believe there is a dealer that specializes in Swiss rifles in Colorado but the name escapes me.
Checking out the Simpsons site reminded me of the joy of Swedish Mausers. They are no longer $69 shipped, but they are well made, accurate and a joy to shoot. I have 4 6.5x55s currently, and they never fail to make me smile.
mustanger98
Member
I'd say whichever you get, get a set of loading dies and brass, then the rest of the equation. There's plenty of options in the load data. A factory load that mimics the respective govt rounds would be something to compare your handload with.
Let me add to this. The receivers were stamped "National Ordnance" and I think the guys who shoveled these dangerous receivers out, once they acquired enough liability, shut the Corporation down and started Federal Ordnance. Welcome to Corporate rape and run.
Having owned one defective National Ordnance M1903A3, I would consider any National Ordnance product to be worth only the sum of its GI parts.
The cast receiver on my rifle was so soft, that the receiver lug seat set back under bolt load. Headspace increased and had I continued to fire it, I would have had a cartridge rupture.
I got rid of the rifle in 1983. When I first purchased it, I took it over to a gunsmith to have the headspace checked. That much I knew. The gunsmith told me that the headspace was excessive. I took it back to the place of purchase. The seller than sent it to a gunsmith who did something. I don’t know what, maybe he cut an extra thread on the barrel.
I don’t remember how many rounds I fired. But it was probably under 200. Might have been less than 100. Early rounds were difficult to extract. Took a bit of effort to raise the bolt. As the number of rounds downrange increased, the more difficult it became to raise the bolt handle. Towards the end, I had to beat the bolt handle to open it. The little light bulb went off in my head and I figured out that the lugs were pounding the receiver seats backward. I was having to size the case with the bolt, to open the bolt. I decided not to shoot the thing anymore.
I traded the rifle plus a RIA double heat treat on a Ruger #1.
A poorly built, improperly heat treated receiver made of inferior materials does not have to telegraph catastrophic failure. It just might let go. Poof! This guy had one blow up on him due to the soft receiver stretching.
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/535...gun-broke.html
The owner reported he had only 76 rounds of factory ammunition before the lug set back caused a cartridge rupture.
The original post was on the old Culver's, which deleted all of its old messages after the update. Luckily I saved the pics.
This young man was very lucky he did not lose an eyeball. I expect he had more facial damage than what you see in these poor camera phone pictures.
And he did nothing that was his fault. He simply fired enough factory ammunition until the National Ordnance receiver failed.
This is another account of a National Ordnance which blew up in the gentleman’s face.
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=8778&highlight=national+ordnance
Another Gentleman whose Dad was saved from serious injury by retiring his National Ordnance when he experienced the first signs of case head separation.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6853297&postcount=3
Yesterday, 10:35 PM
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Chainsaw2
Member
You cannot look at an A3 that had a drill rifle receiver attached and know that the receiver is unsafe. The typical demill job involved heating up the receiver ring with an acetylene torch and creating a tack weld at the intersection of barrel and receiver. That removed the heat treatment from the receiver, annealing the thing. As the annealed receiver was fired, the receiver seats would set back, until:
Random 8
Member
https://simpsonltd.com/wf-bern-k11-rifle-z40918/ Check out this one. A K-11 rather than K-31. The price is reduced due to some finish wear and ugly wood, but it should be a fine shooter. This would be a low-risk investment in what should be a fine shooting rifle. The price would leave you plenty of room to stock ammo and/or reloading gear. Careful with Swiss rifles, they multiply in the gun cabinet.
theotherwaldo
Member
I've got a complete National Ordnance rifle that I picked up for about the price of the very nice barrel.
I haven't decided what to do with it, although I have considered using it to develop a ,30-06 black powder load and a gallery load.
Other than that it is either a source of spare parts or a wall-hanger.
Anyway, why use a bad copy when you have the real thing?
I haven't decided what to do with it, although I have considered using it to develop a ,30-06 black powder load and a gallery load.
Other than that it is either a source of spare parts or a wall-hanger.
Anyway, why use a bad copy when you have the real thing?
@Slamfire
Meant to say National Ordnance which morphed into Federal Ordnance (which rebuilt and made M-1 Carbines among other things) and was related to some other companies that I forget now but the founders of these companies did work originally for Golden State Armory. Senior moment and thanks for the correction. Here is some of the info http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_fedord.html
@theotherwaldo
You could simply use the rest of the parts which usually are all good new GI surplus with a new receiver. From my experience, GI specs were good enough that barrels will usually time and be in headspace if the receiver is good to go. For projects, I picked up two D&T tapped 1903 receivers--one is a DHT receiver which is destined to become a sniper .22 LR using 1922 M2 barrel, bolts, etc. and the other is a Rock Island post-WWI nickel steel receiver which I am thinking about making into a 1903 Sniper rifle (which never existed formally btw). Easier to get new old stock GI 03a3 barrels and do a bit of finish reaming and the receiver was already D&Ted. I paid about $100 or so per receiver due to the D&T job and ended up getting two as I was bidding on two at the same time and won both. Figured I would lose one or the other auction. 1903a3 receivers are a bit more but still seeing them under $150 or so.
Meant to say National Ordnance which morphed into Federal Ordnance (which rebuilt and made M-1 Carbines among other things) and was related to some other companies that I forget now but the founders of these companies did work originally for Golden State Armory. Senior moment and thanks for the correction. Here is some of the info http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_fedord.html
@theotherwaldo
You could simply use the rest of the parts which usually are all good new GI surplus with a new receiver. From my experience, GI specs were good enough that barrels will usually time and be in headspace if the receiver is good to go. For projects, I picked up two D&T tapped 1903 receivers--one is a DHT receiver which is destined to become a sniper .22 LR using 1922 M2 barrel, bolts, etc. and the other is a Rock Island post-WWI nickel steel receiver which I am thinking about making into a 1903 Sniper rifle (which never existed formally btw). Easier to get new old stock GI 03a3 barrels and do a bit of finish reaming and the receiver was already D&Ted. I paid about $100 or so per receiver due to the D&T job and ended up getting two as I was bidding on two at the same time and won both. Figured I would lose one or the other auction. 1903a3 receivers are a bit more but still seeing them under $150 or so.
Dave DeLaurant
Member
And no longer cheap when it is available -- I laid in a goodly supply years ago and hadn't checked prices recently:
https://edelweissarms.com/long-guns/ammunition/
RUAG is supposed to still be supplying new GP11 for the Swiss domestic shooting market. If and when available in the US, it will not be sold at the old milsurp prices!
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?648881-New-quot-GP11-quot-production-announced-by-RUAG
OP, I was fortunate to get into mil-surp weapons when they were cheap. I currently reload for 6.5x55, 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser, 7.64x54r, 30-06, .30 carbine and .308 among others. I will be acquiring what I need to reload 7.5x54mm French soon. Since you are already a reloader don't let ammo availability dampen your spirits for a K31! Dies aren't that expensive and brass can be reused several times. If you didn't reload ammo should be a concern... one of the advantages to reloading is the ability in inexpensively assemble non-mainstream ammo giving you access to enjoying shooting some beautiful historic mil-surp that non-reloaders might find prohibitively expensive to shoot.
P.S. I vaguely recall the original Schmidt-Ruben being 7.5x54 BLACK POWDER cartridges? With SIGNIFICANTLY weaker straight pull actions that are not up to shooting smokeless powder loads in the identical 7.5x54 smokeless powder Swiss cartridge??? My recollection is the K31 is the smokeless powder rifle with an action designed around the higher pressure smokeless cartridge? (I am sure someone will chime in here).
--What I actually remember is to check the action strength of the straight pull Swiss rifle to make sure it was designed for smokeless powder before ordering one!
P.S. I vaguely recall the original Schmidt-Ruben being 7.5x54 BLACK POWDER cartridges? With SIGNIFICANTLY weaker straight pull actions that are not up to shooting smokeless powder loads in the identical 7.5x54 smokeless powder Swiss cartridge??? My recollection is the K31 is the smokeless powder rifle with an action designed around the higher pressure smokeless cartridge? (I am sure someone will chime in here).
--What I actually remember is to check the action strength of the straight pull Swiss rifle to make sure it was designed for smokeless powder before ordering one!
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Random 8
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The modell 1889 was developed to fire a compressed BP and later intermediate early smokeless powders at a lower pressure in the 7,5x53 cartridge. In 1896, a newer smokeless powder was used and pressure was increased for the M96 rifle and case was lengthened to 55mm. In 1911, the very sleek spitzer boat tail was adopted in the GP11 cartridge at the same pressure range of the M96 round. Some other trivial changes were made at this time. M96 and M96/11 rifles are safe to fire with GP-11 level pressures assuming good condition. M1889 rifles MAY not be.
TheFlynn01
Member
That thing is so cool, not gonna lie. Looks like something out of a sci-fi movie haha, I will be sure to look into it! Thank you!
This site is awesome. I spent more time On there than I thought I would. So many choices.I have a lot to chew on for sure.
TheFlynn01
Member
wow, this is interesting and crazy to see. I have never seen a gun turned inside out like that.
There is no profit in educating the shooting public on what not to buy, so you won't read about things like this in the in-print press. A blown receiver ring is pretty typical for low number Springfields when they blow.
I could not believe after talking to a Lyonite that he believed that a low number receiver was safer to be behind, because the receiver would fragment into pieces. He was in denial, and in his weird, convoluted, cult world, when a receiver blows into fragments, it is no more dangerous than a balloon popping. Well, it is more like a fragmentation grenade going off in front of your face, and if a chunk goes through your skull, you are dead.
Always wear your shooting glasses!
Ignition Override
Member
I had assumed that the OP would quickly learn about the 1903 Serial Numbers to be avoided.
Am very glad that none of you guys lost an eye.
Am very glad that none of you guys lost an eye.
TheFlynn01
Member
After seeing the results of it, I will be sure to check out the numbers! Yikes!
if I went with the K31 a lot of folks seem to like reloading, and it seems interesting, who would be the best person to get dies from? What about reloading data, is there a published book with that info?
Random 8
Member
Hornady has data for the 7.5x55 Swiss cartridge. I believe Lyman does also, but not sure. Hodgedon has data online. You'll have to find a correct overall length from an online source, as most data lists a length too long for the K-31. Dies may be purchased from any major seller (Midway, Grafs, etc). You'll want to look for "K-31" specific dies, I believe Redding and Hornady both make them.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/6704
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I conducted some load development for the 7.5 Swiss. I have never purchased Swiss ball, but a bud gave me a chance to shoot some across my screens.
AA4350 gave excellent accuracy and just about duplicates Ball velocities with 51.0 grains and a 168 Nosler Match bullet. As you can see 52.0 grains produced velocities over Ball, so I do not recommend that load. It is here for reference.
Instead of AA4350 I am shooting surplus WC852 in the 7.5 Swiss. This is a ball powder, and I purchased my lot from Jeff Barlett at GIBrass.com . It turns out Accurate Arms purchased a 90,000 pound lot of WC852, faster burning than Jeff’s lot, and now it is labeled as 2700. My lot of WC852 shoots extremely well, was dirt cheap, and I am using that up. But if I did not have the surplus powder, I would give IMR4350 or AA4350 a go as it shot very well.
7.5 x 55 Swiss Model K-31
AP11 Swiss Ball headstamp DA 78
24 Mar 04 T = 70 ° F
Ave Vel = 2565
Std Dev = 11
ES = 23
Low = 2551
High = 2574
N= 4
168 gr Nosler Match 51.0 gr AA4350 INDEP brass and primer OAL 2.850
22 Dec 01 T = 58 ° F
Ave Vel = 2536
Std Dev = 17
ES = 45
Low = 2510
High = 2555
N= 9
168 gr Nosler Match 52.0 gr AA4350 INDEP brass and primer OAL 2.850
22 Dec 01 T = 58 ° F
Ave Vel = 2624
Std Dev = 31
ES = 72
Low = 2588
High = 2660
N=5
By the way, notice the grease ring around the bullet and the case neck. I am of the opinion that this actually reduces barrel pressures by reducing the effort it takes to engrave the bullet in the throat. The US Army, as a part of its low number 03 coverup, blamed greased bullets for the blowups. And, funny to say, they knew of the greased bullets the Swiss Army used. A whole bunch of Armies used greased bullets at the time. Anyway, the Army was in denial nd claimed, in print, that the Swiss were using their greased bullet ammunition to shoot holes in cheese! According to the mighty Army Ordnance Department, the Swiss were stupid and never noticed their rifles blowing apart from greased bullets. Like those M1903 rifles that blew apart with greased bullets. Actually, Swiss rifles were not blowing up with their service ammunition but to acknowledge error or fault is not what psychopathic organizations do.
Reducing engraving pressure is probably why this manufacturer put a grease ring on their bullet.
mustanger98
Member
I recommend Lee Pacesetter rifle die sets, Hornady Interlock .308"/7.62mm hunting bullets, and Hornady load manual. IIRC, MidwayUSA has it. Others will recommend a range of personal preferences. Shop all of it and see what suits you best.
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I'm voting 1903 just because I think traditional bolt action is far cooler than straight pull. Plus it's a Mauser action with a peep sight in a still made common American cartridge. There's quite certainly no shortage of nice things to say about the 1903 as long as you get one that's actually functional. Keep in mind that the first few that they made they used some kind of weird metallurgy on the receiver and they're prone to exploding if used so I hear, not common but there are enough it's worth checking.
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