Is pointing out that you carry a legal threat?

Status
Not open for further replies.
For a CCW carrier to make reference to their weapon is really bad form but it's hard to see it as being a crime unless there is more involved.
It may not be bad form. It may be done to explain why a person is not at liberty to enter a bar or a post office, or to ride the Metrolink in St. Louis.

But if it is done to persuade someone to do something, or to dissuade someone from doing something, it may well be a crime, unless the person would have been justified in the use or of non-deadly physical force, in some states, or in the use of deadly force, in others.
 
It is just my layman translation, I'm not a lawyer.
And in ordinary conversation, that would be fine. Here in Legal, though, we have to be very careful with words. Words have specific meanings (not all of which are readily apparent) and if someone were to read your translation and take it as an accurate reflection of the legal contours of what constitutes a 'threat,' that person could wind up a convicted felon.
 
As far as I know, those aren't the applicable legal standards anywhere. If you have a citation that shows that I am mistaken, please post it.
Personally, I think it's covered under Dumb In Public. Not being stupid greatly increases one's chances of not ending up arrested or shot by someone who was scared by what was said.
Going somewhere to deliberately provoke responses like some of these youtube boobs do is moronic at best. You're not going to convince someone of the validity of your position by provoking them.
 
And in ordinary conversation, that would be fine. Here in Legal, though, we have to be very careful with words. Words have specific meanings (not all of which are readily apparent) and if someone were to read your translation and take it as an accurate reflection of the legal contours of what constitutes a 'threat,' that person could wind up a convicted felon.

Did you watch the video yet?

I am waiting for one of you actual lawyers to look at it and give us your educated opinion.
 
And in ordinary conversation, that would be fine. Here in Legal, though, we have to be very careful with words. Words have specific meanings (not all of which are readily apparent) and if someone were to read your translation and take it as an accurate reflection of the legal contours of what constitutes a 'threat,' that person could wind up a convicted felon.
my wording is a very good way to explain the legal standard in layman terms that anyone can understand, and I provided supporting references. is this something that is not allowed on this section of the forum? or can we only quote statements produced in court documents? which it what it appears you are saying, no?
 
Did you watch the video yet?

I am waiting for one of you actual lawyers to look at it and give us your educated opinion.
I did watch it. I don't have time to research the case law in that particular jurisdiction today. Too busy doing my own work. That said, I think it's enough to get a prosecutor to sign the probable cause affidavit and say 'let a jury sort it out.'

my wording is a very good way to explain the legal standard in layman terms that anyone can understand, and I provided supporting references.
With all due respect, if yours had been a very good way to explain the legal standard in layman terms, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I noted above that your description might pass in casual conversation, but this is the Legal forum. We have to keep a much tighter rein on our words and postings in here.

As for the shortcomings in your description, I'll point them out in the hopes that it will be helpful.
probably not unless they say they are going to do something specific to someone, and then only if people believe them and that they are not just running their mouth.
"Something specific" -- I'll give you that one. In order to be an actionable threat, a certain degree of specificity is required.
"To someone" -- It doesn't have to be 'to someone.' A threat to damage property may be actionable. This one's good enough for casual conversation, but not for a discussion of legal issues.
"Then only if people believe them" -- Which people? The target of the threat? Prosecutors? Police? General witnesses who may have heard the threat (or seen it if written)? So if I post threats to the President of the United States, does he have to believe I would carry those threats out for it to be a crime? No. The word "people" is horribly vague in this context, and the "only if people believe them" is flat not true. I'm at my desk today, so I'll pull the Arkansas Statute on Terroristic Threatening:
Arkansas General Assembly said:
(a)(1) A person commits the offense of terroristic threatening in the first degree if:
(A) With the purpose of terrorizing another person, the person threatens to cause death or serious physical injury or substantial property damage to another person; or
(B) With the purpose of terrorizing another person, the person threatens to cause physical injury or property damage to a teacher or other school employee acting in the line of duty.
(2) Terroristic threatening in the first degree is a Class D felony.
(b)(1) A person commits the offense of terroristic threatening in the second degree if, with the purpose of terrorizing another person, the person threatens to cause physical injury or property damage to another person.
(2) Terroristic threatening in the second degree is a Class A misdemeanor.

Ark. Code Ann. § 5-13-301 (West)
There is zero language in the AR statute about the target having to believe that the threat will be carried out.

"Running their mouth" -- That's a phrase that's fine for casual conversation, but it hasn't appeared in any statute or case that I've ever read in my career.

is this something that is not allowed on this section of the forum? or can we only quote statements produced in court documents? which it what it appears you are saying, no?
Here are the THR Legal Forum Guidelines.
 
In the NYS permit class, it is explained that if you mention your firearm in order to influence behavior if not presented with a threat of death or grievous bodily harm, you can be charged with menacing.
 
I did watch it. I don't have time to research the case law in that particular jurisdiction today. Too busy doing my own work. That said, I think it's enough to get a prosecutor to sign the probable cause affidavit and say 'let a jury sort it out.'


With all due respect, if yours had been a very good way to explain the legal standard in layman terms, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I noted above that your description might pass in casual conversation, but this is the Legal forum. We have to keep a much tighter rein on our words and postings in here.

As for the shortcomings in your description, I'll point them out in the hopes that it will be helpful.

"Something specific" -- I'll give you that one. In order to be an actionable threat, a certain degree of specificity is required.
"To someone" -- It doesn't have to be 'to someone.' A threat to damage property may be actionable. This one's good enough for casual conversation, but not for a discussion of legal issues.
"Then only if people believe them" -- Which people? The target of the threat? Prosecutors? Police? General witnesses who may have heard the threat (or seen it if written)? So if I post threats to the President of the United States, does he have to believe I would carry those threats out for it to be a crime? No. The word "people" is horribly vague in this context, and the "only if people believe them" is flat not true. I'm at my desk today, so I'll pull the Arkansas Statute on Terroristic Threatening:

There is zero language in the AR statute about the target having to believe that the threat will be carried out.

"Running their mouth" -- That's a phrase that's fine for casual conversation, but it hasn't appeared in any statute or case that I've ever read in my career.


Here are the THR Legal Forum Guidelines.
I posted a link supporting what I posted. It is the language validated by the resource I posted, so - take it up with the courts that use said language and tell them what they wrote is flat not true. I'm out on this topic and stand behind what I posted as being valid for the inquiry the OP posted. Reading the resource I posted answers most if not all the questions you have.
 
In the NYS permit class, it is explained that if you mention your firearm in order to influence behavior if not presented with a threat of death or grievous bodily harm, you can be charged with menacing.

I think that’s a good way to look at the question in lay terms. Basically, if under the circumstances an observer could believe that the actor’s mention of a gun was for the purpose of influencing someone’s behavior, the actor could well be in trouble.
 
I posted a link supporting what I posted.....

Except the link was to commentary on the question when a statement regarding possible future violence became a threat outside First Amendment projection. That can be a different matter entirely. So really the material at the link is inapposite.

if one wanted to properly reach the OP’s question he should be looking at court decisions examining what sort of statements and/os conduct would or would not constitute actionable assault (or, in some States, “menacing”).
 
Except the link was to commentary on the question when a statement regarding possible future violence became a threat outside First Amendment projection. That can be a different matter entirely. So really the material at the link is inapposite.

if one wanted to properly reach the OP’s question he should be looking at court decisions examining what sort of statements and/os conduct would or would not constitute actionable assault (or, in some States, “menacing”).

Did you watch the video?

What is your opinion of what she did?
 
Context is quite important. Somehow the "I am ready to fight" stance for some people is to throw their hands and arms out to the sides and present their face. In that stance saying "You know I carry right?!" could be deemed a threat, in some instances by some people. But a "you know I carry right?" followed by a chuckle, typically is not seen as a threat. Body language tells you more about a person's motives then their language ever will, if you know what you are looking for.

The video illustrates the point well. "The **** did you say to me?!" While closing the distance with another person indicates hostile intent. The retort "You know I carry right" not really a threat but not necessarily a wise choice of words for the instance in my lay opinion.
 
Context is quite important. Somehow the "I am ready to fight" stance for some people is to throw their hands and arms out to the sides and present their face. In that stance saying "You know I carry right?!" could be deemed a threat, in some instances by some people. But a "you know I carry right?" followed by a chuckle, typically is not seen as a threat. Body language tells you more about a person's motives then their language ever will, if you know what you are looking for.

The video illustrates the point well. "The **** did you say to me?!" While closing the distance with another person indicates hostile intent. The retort "You know I carry right" not really a threat but not necessarily a wise choice of words for the instance in my lay opinion.

Well, two lawyers disagree with your lay opinion
 
I posted a link supporting what I posted.
The link says what it says, but it just doesn't support the elements you that you claimed earlier make up a threat.
It is the language validated by the resource I posted, so - take it up with the courts that use said language and tell them what they wrote is flat not true.
It's not the courts that I'm saying were wrong.
 
While closing the distance with another person indicates hostile intent. The retort "You know I carry right" not really a threat....
You could so try to argue that after the fact, but I think it likely that those empaneled to judge you would conclude that a reasonable person would interpret such a comment in that context as a threat of violence.

I'm sure I would.

What would become pivotal at that point is whether the person making the statement had been justified in doing so by the threatening actions of the other party.

Not so, in the case on the video.

In Arizona, severe criminal convictions in some cases were widely believed to have been unreasonable, and some years ago, the legislature enacted a provision permitting the "Defensive Display of a Firearm".

That includes any of the following:
  1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.
  2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
  3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.
None of those are lawful unless the use of physical force is justified to defend against an immediate threat of violence.

A handful of states have somewhat similar provisions, but in the majority, an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury would be necessary for justification.
 
This is starting to remind me of discussions we've had previously in which the poster recounts a situation in which another person did something they found threatening, so they take off their cover garment and explicitly state they did it so the other person would know they were armed. Then they turn around and try to say that's not what they did
 
This is starting to remind me of discussions we've had previously in which the poster recounts a situation in which another person did something they found threatening, so they take off their cover garment and explicitly state they did it so the other person would know they were armed. Then they turn around and try to say that's not what they did
I'm about to do what's called a "pro gamer move"
 
I can't speak for Pennsylvania but in Colorado intent is a key component of the law. If I was on the jury, even just watching the video there is no reasonable doubt in my mind that she said that was the intent to intimidate that woman.

I'd vote to convict
I think your willingness to convict might be a little too quick.

This looks like more of a "two morons collide" thing. They both were at fault.

Clearly the large woman was trying to be intimidating/threatening as well.

Informing the large woman that she carries resulted in de-escalation.

You going to vote to convict because both parties actions resulted in no violence?
 
I think your willingness to convict might be a little too quick.

This looks like more of a "two morons collide" thing. They both were at fault.

Clearly the large woman was trying to be intimidating/threatening as well.

Informing the large woman that she carries resulted in de-escalation.

You going to vote to convict because both parties actions resulted in no violence?

I would vote to convict because in Colorado was she did was menacing.

And I just may be wrong but I'm still going to vote to convict because I don't think I am and that's the risk you run when you start running your mouth at people while you're carrying a gun
 
if you feel the need to broadcast that you are armed because somebody made fun of your weight, its just a matter of time before your stupidity costs you your freedom or life.
 
I would vote to convict because in Colorado was she did was menacing.

And I just may be wrong but I'm still going to vote to convict because I don't think I am and that's the risk you run when you start running your mouth at people while you're carrying a gun
hmmm.... I can only wonder at what your stance on 'hate speech' is LOL

so by your estimation, what the large woman did was... not menacing?

And if the girl who said she was carrying was just bluffing... ?
 
They both were at fault.
Perhaps, but that would not exonerate anyone.

Clearly the large woman was trying to be intimidating/threatening as well.
The issue is one of whether or not her words and actions would have justified the defensive use of force, which would be the minimum threshold for justification in some states, or the defensive use of deadly force, which would be the threshold in most jurisdictions. Mere words would not suffice.

You going to vote to convict because both parties actions resulted in no violence?
Actual violence is not necessary to bring about a charge of assault or menacing.

so by your estimation, what the large woman did was... not menacing?
Not in a legal sense, in my opinion.

And if the girl who said she was carrying was just bluffing... ?
Why would that matter?

Attorney Adrew Branca said recently that a large portion of his consulting caseload involves threats with firearms that do not result in violence.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top