Magnum Rifle - Is there a sweet spot?

Goosey · Apr 17, 2020

cdb1 said:
There are substantial numbers of people who feel the .404 Jeffery is the better cartridge. I’ll take a Jeffery any day over a 416. Remington

Likewise, there are also many people who think the 257 Roberts is better than the 6.5 Creedmoor. And they're wrong as well! The 416 Remington and 404 Jeffery have cases and bores of similar size, and therefore these two cartridges have the same performance. The 416 is the clear practical choice due to lack of support for the 404's uncommon .423 bore.

The 404 does only one thing better: it's got a cooler name!

cdb1 · Apr 17, 2020

Goosey said:
The 404 does only one thing better: it's got a cooler name!

It also operates at lower pressure and has less recoil I believe, which is an advantage in my book.

Goosey · Apr 17, 2020

cdb1 said:
It also operates at lower pressure and has less recoil I believe, which is an advantage in my book.

The Jeffery max per CIP is 53000 psi, while the 416 Rem is 62000. But those are only standards. Today's factory loads for the 404 put 400 gr bullets at 2300-2350 fps vs the 416's 2400 fps. Norma's African PH line has identical ballistics in both calibers: 450 gr at 2150 fps. Recoil will be similar.

But with case capacities within a handful of grains, the pressures should not be far different. There are loads for the 416 which push a 400 gr to 2300 fps while only making around 50,000 psi. And if you want even less you could easily load the Remington to the Jeffery's historic level (400 gr at ~2150 fps).

Goosey · Apr 17, 2020

But yes: the 404 Jeffery will always be classier.

cdb1 · Apr 17, 2020

You have your opinion the .416 Remington is better. I didn’t state the .404 Jeffery is better, just that I like it better. What I don’t believe is that it’s possible to prove which cartridge is better.

Goosey · Apr 17, 2020

cdb1 said:
You have your opinion the .416 Remington is better. I didn’t state the .404 Jeffery is better, just that I like it better. What I don’t believe is that it’s possible to prove which cartridge is better.

Well, if the bullet selection situation was reversed, the 404 would be better. Example,looking at one company: Barnes offers a 400 gr solid and a 400 gr TSX for the 404. But Barnes offers 300 gr, 350 gr, and 400 gr TSXs, a 350 gr TTSX, and 350 gr and 400 gr solids for the 416.

brasscollector · Apr 17, 2020

Llama Bob said:
The 300 PRC is very interesting (as is the 30 Nosler) but the gun selection has kept my money in my pocket so far.

Build one, that's what I'm doing. I've ordered a barrel and a custom stock and some small parts so far. Once I get the barrel in hand (should be next week) it's off to the smith for me.

Golfanaticshooter · Apr 18, 2020

To answer the original question, I shall borrow a line from Ricky Bobby's favorite movie; "There can be only one!" 375 H&H

Garandimal · May 4, 2020

Will throw in my hat - that for a "practical" Magnum, that will take a Cape Buffalo or Kodiak Brown Bear, but will more likely be used for fun or really large (+300lb) boar?

The round to beat is the 9.3x62mm Mauser (Bock).

9.3x62mm next to a .308

Fits into a std. length action - factory 286 gr. bullets at 2360 produce 3525 lbs-ft at the muzzle, and hand-loaded to just under 2500 fps gives you just shy of Two tons.

You will definitely know you have pulled the trigger on something.

And though it will do the lion's share of the work of the .375 H&H, it has significantly less recoil.

...it also comes in some very nice packages.

GR

Llama Bob · May 4, 2020

Goosey said:
The Jeffery max per CIP is 53000 psi, while the 416 Rem is 62000. But those are only standards. Today's factory loads for the 404 put 400 gr bullets at 2300-2350 fps vs the 416's 2400 fps. Norma's African PH line has identical ballistics in both calibers: 450 gr at 2150 fps. Recoil will be similar.

But with case capacities within a handful of grains, the pressures should not be far different. There are loads for the 416 which push a 400 gr to 2300 fps while only making around 50,000 psi. And if you want even less you could easily load the Remington to the Jeffery's historic level (400 gr at ~2150 fps).

There's a little more to this story in my opinion. The 416 Rigby, 416 Remington, and .404 Jeffery all have essentially similar ballistics. However as you go from a case capacity in the 100s (Remington) to the 110s (Jeffery) to 120s (Rigby) the pressures drop and the design becomes less sensitive to temperature-related overpressure and has more options in terms of powder. The original cartridge designs that were made to work with cordite have the advantage that almost any modern powder is better. They are very robust. Their downside is more velocity variation due to powder positioning, but for a stopping rifle that doesn't matter.

If you are actually messing with dangerous game, I think the wise thing to do is to use one of the larger cases on a true magnum action (375 H&H,.416 Rigby, 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs) and avoid shorter high pressure versions (.458 WM, .416 Remington) and then on top of that use good temp-insensitive powders (usually AR-Comp, RL-16, or one of the Hodgdon Extreme options). The weight and cost of a magnum action is not a big loss.

cdb1 · May 4, 2020

Llama Bob said:
There's a little more to this story in my opinion. The 416 Rigby, 416 Remington, and .404 Jeffery all have essentially similar ballistics. However as you go from a case capacity in the 100s (Remington) to the 110s (Jeffery) to 120s (Rigby) the pressures drop and the design becomes less sensitive to temperature-related overpressure and has more options in terms of powder. The original cartridge designs that were made to work with cordite have the advantage that almost any modern powder is better. They are very robust. Their downside is more velocity variation due to powder positioning, but for a stopping rifle that doesn't matter.

If you are actually messing with dangerous game, I think the wise thing to do is to use one of the larger cases on a true magnum action (375 H&H,.416 Rigby, 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs) and avoid shorter high pressure versions (.458 WM, .416 Remington) and then on top of that use good temp-insensitive powders (usually AR-Comp, RL-16, or one of the Hodgdon Extreme options). The weight and cost of a magnum action is not a big loss.

I agree.

Goosey · May 9, 2020

Llama Bob said:
There's a little more to this story in my opinion. The 416 Rigby, 416 Remington, and .404 Jeffery all have essentially similar ballistics. However as you go from a case capacity in the 100s (Remington) to the 110s (Jeffery) to 120s (Rigby) the pressures drop and the design becomes less sensitive to temperature-related overpressure and has more options in terms of powder. The original cartridge designs that were made to work with cordite have the advantage that almost any modern powder is better. They are very robust. Their downside is more velocity variation due to powder positioning, but for a stopping rifle that doesn't matter.

The Rigby is substantially larger that both, but I was only comparing 416 Rem (107 gr) to 404 Jeffery (113 gr). Such a small difference is worth very little. The 416 will be only be ~2000 psi higher when matching the Jeffery - peanuts. And in the meantime you have a .416" bore.

792mauser · May 11, 2020

The glorious 375 H&H magnum

LoonWulf · May 11, 2020

792mauser said:
View attachment 915820 The glorious 375 H&H magnum

Gonna need a .375 for Darth SqrL there.....

Mosin Bubba · May 11, 2020

A family friend still goes hunting every year with a 300 H&H Mag. Not something I'd recommend buying these days with $80/box ammo, but it's definitely got that old school cool.

H&Hhunter · May 11, 2020

Goosey said:
The Rigby is substantially larger that both, but I was only comparing 416 Rem (107 gr) to 404 Jeffery (113 gr). Such a small difference is worth very little. The 416 will be only be ~2000 psi higher when matching the Jeffery - peanuts. And in the meantime you have a .416" bore.

A .404 Jeffery is a .423 bore. It’s a common error to think the .416 is a larger bore Than the .404 but it’s actually smaller. The old British measured bore from the lans not the groves.

The .404 was named such for marketing purposes. It was a advertisement for the new fangled repeating large bore .40 cal that held 4 rounds. Which was quite the innovation when it was released in 1909.

BTW depending on the year and the manufacture a vintage .404 Jeffery can be of various bore sizes measuring in either .411, .419 or .423”. All modern .404’s are standardized in .423”. So if you get find a “smoking” deal on .404 Jeffery make sure and slug the bore before shooting it. I’ll almost guarantee you it’s one of the odd ball bore sizes that make it really tough to find bullets for.

Llama Bob · May 11, 2020

A .404J with a .411 bore can be an excellent deal, since appropriate bullets are made for its Jeffery stable mate the .450/400 3". You will have to get dies made I think but not that big a deal.

A .404J with a .419 bore may be useless at this point short of swaging bullets?

H&Hhunter · May 11, 2020

Llama Bob said:
A .404J with a .411 bore can be an excellent deal, since appropriate bullets are made for its Jeffery stable mate the .450/400 3". You will have to get dies made I think but not that big a deal.

A .404J with a .419 bore may be useless at this point short of swaging bullets?

Swagging would be about your only option. There were very few .404's built with a .411 bore most of the non .423's were .419's. Just beware if you find a super deal on a classic .404J.

MCgunner · May 11, 2020

Components? http://www.midwayusa.com
See, no excuse there!

I had similar thoughts wanting a belted magnum 30 years ago. I compared down range ballistics and ballistic coefficient being a handloader and decided on the 7mm Rem Mag vs the .300 Win Mag. They'll both kill elk and that was a consideration as all I had at the time was a .257 Roberts which is a might light for such game, great choice for whitetail, but not so great on larger big game. I anticipated using the big 7 downloaded to .284 Remington velocities on whitetail, but then won a new stainless Remington M7 in .308 which has become my go to whitetail rifle and, truth be told, is plenty, properly loaded, for elk to 300 yards. If I'd had that .308, I would probably have forgotten about the 7 mag. But, I'm glad I bought it. It does make a big BANG, very flat shooting, and with the 160 Nosler Partition which is very accurate in this rifle, will reach out and thump big game pretty well, as good as any .300 Win Mag.

And, not that I'm a light recoil kinda guy, but the 7 ain't hard on old shoulders.

Goosey · May 11, 2020

H&Hhunter said:
A .404 Jeffery is a .423 bore. It’s a common error to think the .416 is a larger bore Than the .404 but it’s actually smaller. The old British measured bore from the lans not the groves.

The .404 was named such for marketing purposes. It was a advertisement for the new fangled repeating large bore .40 cal that held 4 rounds. Which was quite the innovation when it was released in 1909.

BTW depending on the year and the manufacture a vintage .404 Jeffery can be of various bore sizes measuring in either .411, .419 or .423”. All modern .404’s are standardized in .423”. So if you get find a “smoking” deal on .404 Jeffery make sure and slug the bore before shooting it. I’ll almost guarantee you it’s one of the odd ball bore sizes that make it really tough to find bullets for.

I didn't say .416 was larger!

H&Hhunter · May 11, 2020

Goosey said:
I didn't say .416 was larger!

Well alrighty then!

Poper · May 11, 2020

You do understand, I hope, that the word "magnum" is meaningless in the first place.

No, not really.
If you shoot metallic silhouette, magnums are prohibited on the range. So a 'meaningless' word, it certainly is not.

Magnum Rifle - Is there a sweet spot?

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