.40/10mm vs .45 ACP/.45 Super

As far as I know, the reason for .45 super is you have a .45 ACP pistol and want to convert it to a hotter round rather than buying another gun. You can’t buy a factory .45 super gun.

The reason for 10mm is you want a practical pistol that has a bit more oomph than the military rounds like .45 ACP and 9mm offer. Practical meaning “not a desert eagle or the like”.

The reason for buying a .40 is that you find a good deal and want a better chance of finding ammo during a panic. The reason the .40 exists was manufacturers seeing a market for “bigger than 9mm” guns and wanting to base them on 9mm/short frames.

Personally, I have .40, 10mm, and .45 ACP (but not .45 super) pistols (among others). They all have advantages but I would probably drop the .40 from my lineup before any of the others. As far as revolvers, I have .45 ACP revolvers because some of my .45 colts came from the factory compatible with both. I don’t have a .40/10mm revolver but would if I was a competitive shooter who loaded a ton of .40 due to competition rules, or for some other reason I had a lot of .40 ammo and wanted a revolver that could use that ammo.

I figure owning a .40 and a 10mm is about the same as having a .38Spl and a .357 magnum, without the convenience of shooting them out of the same gun. .45 has just been around for so long it's something everybody wants at least one of. I don't know much about .45 Super, don't really care because I don't see it being any better than 10mm. I've got a .40 compact, and a 10mm and .45 in 1911's. I don't much care for revolvers made to hold autoloader rounds, when there are some good revolver calibers to have (.357 Magnum being my favorite) that the bullets properly fit in the cylinder.

I'm satisfied with a 230 grain, 45 caliber bullet leaving the muzzle at 800-850 fps for most circumstances.

I do own 40 S&W pistols and a 10mm revolver so I do have options.

The problem with .45 Super is that since cartridge is simply a more powerful loaded .45 ACP, the ammo could end up in standard .45 Auto pistols and cause injury to the user.

Factory loaded cartridges and new cases for reloading are marked and uses small pistol primers.

i wanted a 230 gn. xtp bullet @ 1,000 fps for my defense load, so i converted my glock 30 to 45 super. my "super" loads use 45 super brass and the case heads are all painted red. i don't want these guys anywhere near my gold cup!

luck,

murf

No experience with 10mm or 45 Super. I would like have those guns & play with them but for my purposes & budget 9mm, .40 & .45 suffice.

Have never owned 10mm or 45 Super. Have owned 40s and currently own 45s. For me, it's simply a matter of the the relationship 45 has with 1911 platform. Also why I've become 38 Super fan. Same reason I cringe when I see a nice old Ford or Chrysler hot rod with a SBC engine.

whm1974 said:

The problem with .45 Super is that since cartridge is simply a more powerful loaded .45 ACP, the ammo could end up in standard .45 Auto pistols and cause injury to the user.

Click to expand...

How will it cause injury to the shooter?

45 Super can be fired in a 'standard' 45 auto pistol. The recommended modifications are a stronger recoil spring, shock buffer, extra power firing pin spring, and a couple more. If converting a Glock, they strongly recommend a new barrel with better chamber support.

whm1974 said:

Factory loaded cartridges and new cases for reloading are marked and uses small pistol primers.

Click to expand...

45 Super cases use large pistol primers, not small.

JMHO but 45 Super/45 SMC always seemed like a bad idea to me. Doing silly things like that is why we have SAAMI in the first place narrowly missing getting Government oversight on the industry instead. You'll notice 45 Super/ 45 ACP is a not a SAMMI cartridge and never will be. At least 460 Rowland has the forethought to make the case longer.

I have both a 10mm Auto and 45 ACP revolver. I like em. I currently don't own either cartridge in a semi-auto. I could probably shoot 45 Super/ 45 SMC in my 625 but why I have an M29...

I have them all and reload for all of them. I would say there is a slightly bigger difference between 45 and 45 super than between 40 and 10 mm in Performance.

The only reason I have 45 ACP is because I also like 1911 pistols. I wouldn't be as enthusiastic about 45 ACP in any other platform although I do have a G21. That Glock is far from my favorite pistol, but it isn't worth a lot of money so I'll just keep it.

I don't see any advantage to either in a revolver. I could like a 45 Colt revolver, but wouldn't be interested in a revolver in any of those 4. And I had a Ruger Blackhawk with both 45 ACP and 45 Colt cylinders at one time.

I figure owning a .40 and a 10mm is about the same as having a .38Spl and a .357 magnum, without the convenience of shooting them out of the same gun.

Click to expand...

I can't comment on other brands, but both of my 10mm Glocks shoot 40 S&W just fine. But I can now buy 10mm ammo at exactly the same price as 40 S&W. 40 is easier to find and I keep a supply of 40 ammo in case I run short of 10mm. But when I find 10mm I stock up so it's never been a problem.

The main purpose behind 10mm and 45 Super is to get magnum performance out of a semi-auto pistol for large predator protection. Standard 45 ACP or 40 S&W rounds are more than adequate for 2 legged predators.

I'm more familiar with 10mm, I have both a G20 and G29. Both guns will shoot 200 gr hardcast bullets to 1300/1250 fps depending on the gun. That is a little better than 357 mag and will match anything 41 mag will do from a 4" or shorter barrel.

While less familiar with the hot 45 loads there are several options for heavy for caliber 45 hardcast loads in both 45 Super and 45ACP+P that will come close to matching the hotter 10mm loads. I still think 10mm is the better option, but if someone has a 45 and does not want to add another gun shooting these loads is a viable option for large predator defense.

jmr40 said:

I'm more familiar with 10mm, I have both a G20 and G29. Both guns will shoot 200 gr hardcast bullets to 1300/1250 fps depending on the gun. That is a little better than 357 mag and will match anything 41 mag will do from a 4" or shorter barrel.

Click to expand...

Buffalo Bore has a 230 grain 41 Mag load at 1370 fps from a 4" barrel. I think that's a bit better than your 10mm load.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=92

Underwood's 210 XTP 41 mag is at 1560 fps, though they don't indicate what barrel length.

Doubletap's 250 cast lead 41 mag is at 1260 fps from a 4.62" barrel.

fxvr5 said:

Buffalo Bore has a 230 grain 41 Mag load at 1370 fps from a 4" barrel. I think that's a bit better than your 10mm load.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=92

Underwood's 210 XTP 41 mag is at 1560 fps, though they don't indicate what barrel length.

Doubletap's 250 cast lead 41 mag is at 1260 fps from a 4.62" barrel.

Click to expand...

I agree and I am a big fan of the 10mm Auto cartridge but it ain't no 41 Mag and I am not a fan of 41 Mag. 10mm Magnum will get you very close to 41 Mag performance but there is only 1 out of production gun in 10mm Mag (ATM made one IIRC) the rest are converted 10mm Auto Revolvers.

I have a .45 Blackhawk convertible and a couple of .40 semiautos,would
consider a Blackhawk convertible in .40/10mm but I’m done with the .45acp semiauto.

I could see myself with .40S&W(SD) and 10mm(deer hunting) but I really only need one Blackhawk so unless I dump the 45 convertible I can’t justify the new one.

fxvr5 said:

How will it cause injury to the shooter?

Click to expand...

Interesting question, one that got me to research the 45 Super. It uses thicker case walls and case head and so strengthened, is not supposed to blow the case head. It operates at 28,000 psia, supposed to push a 230 bullet 1100 fps.

I don't know what recoil springs a shooter is supposed to use, but I did try 24 lb springs in my RIA 1911 and the slide required a good firm grip to pull back.

The 45 ACP was developed as the minimally acceptable round to shoot soldiers/sailors/marines. It was not designed to hunt game, particularly elephants or dinosaurs.



Something I have not seen is a quantification of the more means more philosophy of hot loading cartridges. Yes, pushing a 230 grain FMJ faster makes it move faster. What does that mean in terms of lethality? Does it make the round 100% more lethal? 50% more lethal?, or 5% more lethal. If made the cartridge 1% to 5% more lethal than a standard 45 ACP, are the disadvantages of firearm wear, recoil, and blast, worth it?

OP. The 45 Super is a superior round to both the 45 Automatic and the 10MM. Fit the cartridge to your need. For me, these semi-automatic rounds fill personal protection. I have more potent revolvers that take me over the 45 Automatic and 10MM territory - at or above 44 Magnum. I do appreciate all of the rounds you mentioned - 40 S&W, 10MM, 45 Automatic. I don't own a 45 Super. My ability to manage a fully loaded 10MM for self defense is stretching my ability. I settle more towards a 180 grain bullet at or about 1,100 fps. Which is satisfied by the calibers you mentioned. I have fun with my 10MM and fully loaded 45 Automatic but it is above my sweet spot in self defense. Just a few words to you from my perspective. Yea, there are handguns out there that will give you all the punch you could ever want from a handgun. It just depends on where you want to settle in to manage the recoil and for how long.

Robert101 said:

OP. The 45 Super is a superior round to both the 45 Automatic and the 10MM. Fit the cartridge to your need. For me, these semi-automatic rounds fill personal protection. I have more potent revolvers that take me over the 45 Automatic and 10MM territory - at or above 44 Magnum. I do appreciate all of the rounds you mentioned - 40 S&W, 10MM, 45 Automatic. I don't own a 45 Super. My ability to manage a fully loaded 10MM for self defense is stretching my ability. I settle more towards a 180 grain bullet at or about 1,100 fps. Which is satisfied by the calibers you mentioned. I have fun with my 10MM and fully loaded 45 Automatic but it is above my sweet spot in self defense. Just a few words to you from my perspective. Yea, there are handguns out there that will give you all the punch you could ever want from a handgun. It just depends on where you want to settle in to manage the recoil and for how long.

Click to expand...

Not sure how you say 45 Super is superior to 10mm They are both pretty close to each other in performance. If anything 10mm Auto wins slightly in the energy department. 45 Super seems to top out around 700 ft-lbs 10mm Auto around 750 ft-lbs in similar length full size handguns. 10mm in a semi-auto has a moderate capacity advantage also. I doubt there is enough of a difference for the shooter or the shoot'e to tell the difference.

whm1974 said:

The problem with .45 Super is that since cartridge is simply a more powerful loaded .45 ACP, the ammo could end up in standard .45 Auto pistols and cause injury to the user.

Factory loaded cartridges and new cases for reloading are marked and uses small pistol primers.

Click to expand...

no 45 super is going to cause injury. Its still less than a proof load for standard 45acp. it will accelerate ware. that is all.
they are identical between the 10mm and 45 super for most all comparisons.

Slamfire said:

The 45 ACP was developed as the minimally acceptable round to shoot soldiers/sailors/marines. It was not designed to hunt game, particularly elephants or dinosaurs.

Click to expand...

A number of years ago, Mike Venturino of "Handloader" magazine commented that the Calvary had a main input in the choice of the 45 ACP round for Government issue handguns when the 1911 was being considered. At the time, the Calvary was still "king" of military units and they wanted a gun and round that would put down a horse.

That made sense to me.

Sorry that I cannot provide links to the information but I can agree with it.

TTv2 said:

In regards to .40 & .45 ACP and 10mm & .45 Super, both seem to have similar, if not identical ballistics. So, when they are so similar is their any reason to choose one caliber over the other?

Personally I have lots of .40 guns, but not one .45 semi auto. I do however have lots of .45 revolvers, but not one .40/10mm revolver, so I see the pros and cons to each caliber depending on what they're being shot from, but I really see no reason to suddenly up and buy a .45 semi auto or a .40/10mm revolver.

What do you gentleman think?

Click to expand...

10mm suits me because I think of it as a 357 mag that functions in a "normal" semi-auto pistol. If a 45 acp were a 357, it would be a 10mm.

cfullgraf said:

A number of years ago, Mike Venturino of "Handloader" magazine commented that the Calvary had a main input in the choice of the 45 ACP round for Government issue handguns when the 1911 was being considered. At the time, the Calvary was still "king" of military units and they wanted a gun and round that would put down a horse.

That made sense to me.

Sorry that I cannot provide links to the information but I can agree with it.

Click to expand...

Don't know just who created the requirement which the Army reverted back to 45 caliber. If you remember, the Army had gone to 38 Long Colt, decided it did not provide the lethality needed. After issuing old Colt SAA in 45 LC caliber, the Army also procured 45 LC New Service revolvers. The references state these were issued to Infantry, and probably, anyone else.

The Cavalry did have the main input into features for the pistol as the Cavalry was the primary combat user of the pistol. Cavalry carried swords, and practiced with the sword right up to WW2. Cavalry carried M1903 rifles, which is why the M1903 has a 24 inch barrel instead of a 29 inch barrel. But Cavalry was practiced pistol charges and given that shooting a rifle off a horse was impracticable, the pistol was a primary weapon in close combat.

No where have I found a requirement to shoot horses. That is a false inference that because Cavalry rode horses, therefore issue small arms must kill horses. I ask, why kill horses when you want to capture enemy horses but kill the rider? The rider is the threat, not the horse. Horses were valuable due to their high rate of attrition. Armies were always scrambling to find new horses to replace ones that died. Was the Patten saber designed to kill horses? Might as well claim the infantry wanted their pistols to kill tanks, once those got on the battle field. Did we not all see Tom Hanks shoot a Tiger Tank (in Saving Private Ryan) with a M1911?. Ergo, the infantry wanted a pistol which would destroy 40 ton tanks armed with 88 mm cannons.

In fact, I bet infantry did wish they had something, anything, portable that would stop a Tiger tank. I don't know what a bazooka would do to a Tiger tank. Wishes are like fishes.

Now where can I buy one of these?

TTv2 said:

In regards to .40 & .45 ACP and 10mm & .45 Super, both seem to have similar, if not identical ballistics. So, when they are so similar is their any reason to choose one caliber over the other?

Personally I have lots of .40 guns, but not one .45 semi auto. I do however have lots of .45 revolvers, but not one .40/10mm revolver, so I see the pros and cons to each caliber depending on what they're being shot from, but I really see no reason to suddenly up and buy a .45 semi auto or a .40/10mm revolver.

What do you gentleman think?

Click to expand...

The reason for having either a 10mm or .45 Super is to have a cartridge that is available in a slim semiauto handgun that has more than enough power and penetration ability for reliable performance on deer sized game. If you already have a full sized .45 acp then it is pretty simple to shoot 255 grain hardcast bullets at a little over 1000 fps...If you don't have a .45 acp then you have the choice of buying one or a 10mm....My deerhunting weapon of choice is a .45 Super but a 10mm will do just as well. Reasonable .45 Super loads will NOT blow up any quality .45 acp auto but slide and barrel mass are key to minimize gun wear and tear. Recoil spring rates have very little impact on slide velocity at Super pressures so choose what makes you feel good.

Wonder how unpleasant it would be to accidentally put a 45 Super into into a sub-compact 45 ACP gun like a Kahr PM45 or a XD-s 45 ACP or even a Bond Arms 45 ACP derringer?

mcb said:

Wonder how unpleasant it would be to accidentally put a 45 Super into into a sub-compact 45 ACP gun like a Kahr PM45 or a XD-s 45 ACP or even a Bond Arms 45 ACP derringer?

Click to expand...

The "math" would indicate that it would be very unpleasent to shoot at the least! Shooter beware!