Purchasing a gun to give to my son in the distant future

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Ken73

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Hello from Arizona. Sorry about the long post, but I want everything to be clear. When my little boy was born back in 2017, I decided it would be neat if he would someday be able to own a rifle that was manufactured about the time he was born. Not knowing of anything irresponsible or unethical about trying to obtain said rifle, I researched the legality of purchasing a gun to give to my son sometime in the future. I have not found a law against purchasing a gun which I intend to give my son someday, nor have I found a law prohibiting actually giving a gun to my son so long as he is not a prohibited possessor. I realize transfer of ownership laws and minimum age to possess a firearm laws could change by the time he is of age. I would like to abide by whatever laws are in place at that time. I believe I can truthfully, honestly answer question 21a on 4473 with “Yes”. I am the actual purchaser, purchasing with the intent to give the gun to my son when appropriate and legal to do so.

Local gun shops and their warehouses seemed to be low on inventory at that time, and still not having found the desired rifle, I started shopping online. Most online sellers that I have found do not list the serial number or show the hang tag (which contains a date). Recently, I contacted a seller (using the website’s “contact seller” option) and inquired about date of manufacture or serial number. I mentioned wanting a rifle from 2017. Seller responded with serial number. I responded that I believed that serial number was manufactured in 2013. I thanked seller for checking, offered a compliment on the nice rifle, but mentioned that it was not made the year my little boy was born. Seller’s reply (in all caps): OMG, BLOCKED FOREVER.

Seller certainly has the right to choose with whom to do business, but a reply such as this suggests that the seller believed me to be attempting something bad, and does not want to discuss the matter.

Have I missed something?
 
What you wish to do is perfectly legal. As long as your son resides in the same state you do and as long as you have no reason to believe he is a prohibited person then you can give him a firearm directly with no need for an FFL to handle the transfer from you to him. In addition, it is perfectly legal for you to purchase a firearm with the express intent to GIVE it to another person (who is not a prohibited person) as a GIFT.

There are laws about acting as the purchaser of a gun when another person is actually the intended recipient and is also compensating the purchaser for it; but buying a firearm as a GIFT is perfectly legal.

I keep emphasizing "gift" because that's important. If you are receiving something for the gun from the person who is the ultimate intended recipient, then it is not a GIFT and you are not GIVING it to them. Then things get more complicated. But a gift is not a problem.

Yes, there are people, even people in the firearm business, who don't seem to understand that buying a firearm to give as a gift is not the same as a straw purchase.

It is not because things aren't clear, because the 4473 even has an explanatory section that explicitly states buying a gun to give as a gift is legal.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4...n-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

Page 4, under the section entitled "Question 21.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer:"

A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.​
 
Ken73 said:
Hello from Arizona. Sorry about the long post, but I want everything to be clear. When my little boy was born back in 2017, I decided it would be neat if he would someday be able to own a rifle that was manufactured about the time he was born. Not knowing of anything irresponsible or unethical about trying to obtain said rifle, I researched the legality of purchasing a gun to give to my son sometime in the future. I have not found a law against purchasing a gun which I intend to give my son someday, nor have I found a law prohibiting actually giving a gun to my son so long as he is not a prohibited possessor. I realize transfer of ownership laws and minimum age to possess a firearm laws could change by the time he is of age. I would like to abide by whatever laws are in place at that time. I believe I can truthfully, honestly answer question 21a on 4473 with “Yes”. I am the actual purchaser, purchasing with the intent to give the gun to my son when appropriate and legal to do so.

Local gun shops and their warehouses seemed to be low on inventory at that time, and still not having found the desired rifle, I started shopping online. Most online sellers that I have found do not list the serial number or show the hang tag (which contains a date). Recently, I contacted a seller (using the website’s “contact seller” option) and inquired about date of manufacture or serial number. I mentioned wanting a rifle from 2017. Seller responded with serial number. I responded that I believed that serial number was manufactured in 2013. I thanked seller for checking, offered a compliment on the nice rifle, but mentioned that it was not made the year my little boy was born. Seller’s reply (in all caps): OMG, BLOCKED FOREVER.

Seller certainly has the right to choose with whom to do business, but a reply such as this suggests that the seller believed me to be attempting something bad, and does not want to discuss the matter.

Have I missed something?
Click to expand...

No, you have not done anything wrong. My take is the seller is simply annoyed that he thought he had it sold but then lost the sale due to date--he probably felt put out about you rejecting it due to the date of mfg. As @deadin suggested, it could have been something about the serial number as some people are convinced that someone will file a report claiming that serial number was stolen from them. Or, the guy could just not be professional in his dealings with others.

Dealing with other sellers in the future, I would suggest that you simply want a rifle etc. of that year because it is important to you and it is a dealbreaker. Don't discuss why the date is important. In essence, under federal law, you would be the actual purchaser and as you are and intend to be the only one with access to it for a long while. Then, depending on the age of your child, etc. you would then be able to gift the firearm in the future depending on what state and federal laws exist at the time of the gift where you reside.

You might or might not have to do an official transfer at that time if your state or the federal government adopts a universal background check type law. Before the gift though, you do need to keep the firearm under your control--via locks, safes, etc. and depending on the state where you live, you would need to comply with state laws regarding transfers when training your child with the firearm. I would suggest using it and making sure that it functions before you put it into deep storage, if that is your intention, due to warranty issues.
 
Rather than trying to find something from 2017 by serial number you may want to look for a special edition or commemorative which was made that year.

The seller in your case may have just been annoyed with you looking for a certain serial number.

Buck knives marks their blades with a year mark, nice option if you want to track down a knife from 2017; https://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/how-old/
 
Also when contacting someone about a speciality gun, let them know you want that one in certain serial number range & offer an additional % of the price as commission for finding it.. I have found offering a $50 to $100 finders fee for something makes the searcher happy to cater to what some would consider unimportant nuances..

Such offers makes a dealer say.. " I have an eccentric collector looking for this " vs "You should have seen what this screwball wanted last week". Not everyone understands our desires like we do..

I am speaking of this not as a dealer but from years of playing the Eccentric Collector/ScrewBall.
 
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Thank-you for the replies, it's good to know that my understanding of the law is correct. Seller's response scared me.
boom boom, your well written post has a lot of information in a few lines. I hadn't thought of the warranty issues scenario.
indy1919a4, thank-you for the finder's commission suggestion. Giving a reason (legal and legitimate) did not seem to help the seller's opinion of me in this case. I'll try to be a little quieter about my intentions and implied intentions ("the year my little boy was born") even though they are legal.
 
Are you after something in particular? Like specifically wanting a 22 rifle, or pump shotgun. If your desires are somewhat broad then you could maybe find serial ranges on a few of the more common guns and just check around until you stumble upon something that fits the criteria. Otherwise you could simply email sellers of the guns your interested in with the simple statement that you specifically want a gun manufactured in 2017 and see if they possibly have one.

Another option is to find Models discontinued in 2017 and if they are still for sale NIB then they are likely late production guns.
 
Ken73 said:
Hello from Arizona. Sorry about the long post, but I want everything to be clear. When my little boy was born back in 2017, I decided it would be neat if he would someday be able to own a rifle that was manufactured about the time he was born. Not knowing of anything irresponsible or unethical about trying to obtain said rifle, I researched the legality of purchasing a gun to give to my son sometime in the future. I have not found a law against purchasing a gun which I intend to give my son someday, nor have I found a law prohibiting actually giving a gun to my son so long as he is not a prohibited possessor. I realize transfer of ownership laws and minimum age to possess a firearm laws could change by the time he is of age. I would like to abide by whatever laws are in place at that time. I believe I can truthfully, honestly answer question 21a on 4473 with “Yes”. I am the actual purchaser, purchasing with the intent to give the gun to my son when appropriate and legal to do so.
Click to expand...
As noted above, it is perfectly legal to purchase a firearm as a bonafide gift. The recipient must not be otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm.



...Recently, I contacted a seller (using the website’s “contact seller” option) and inquired about date of manufacture or serial number. I mentioned wanting a rifle from 2017. Seller responded with serial number. I responded that I believed that serial number was manufactured in 2013. I thanked seller for checking, offered a compliment on the nice rifle, but mentioned that it was not made the year my little boy was born. Seller’s reply (in all caps): OMG, BLOCKED FOREVER.
Click to expand...
A little harsh, but having sold a number of firearms through Gunbroker, local gun forums, here on THR and at gunshows I can understand why that seller blocked you.
Sellers may field dozens if not hundreds of such requests. Serial# hunters can be aggravating, I've been asked if the serial# contained any 4's......apparently a deal killer for the Chinese.


Seller certainly has the right to choose with whom to do business, but a reply such as this suggests that the seller believed me to be attempting something bad, and does not want to discuss the matter.
Click to expand...
It wasn't the attempt at purchasing as a gift, but asking something that the seller considers as not worth his time. It was only a few minutes of your time, but imagine getting several of those emails a day. It begins to test your temper.

It's akin to a car salesman being asked "what day of the week was this car made? 'Cause I don't want a Monday or Friday car!"
 
WestKentucky said:
Are you after something in particular? Like specifically wanting a 22 rifle, or pump shotgun. If your desires are somewhat broad then you could maybe find serial ranges on a few of the more common guns and just check around until you stumble upon something that fits the criteria. Otherwise you could simply email sellers of the guns your interested in with the simple statement that you specifically want a gun manufactured in 2017 and see if they possibly have one.

Another option is to find Models discontinued in 2017 and if they are still for sale NIB then they are likely late production guns.
Click to expand...
Thank-you for the suggestions. There is a specific model that would be my first choice. I found some serial number data and started shopping. Being a common rifle, I really thought I could find one. My son was born near the end of the year, and after the Christmas rush, the new stock I was finding was made in January of 18. To buy one with a date of manufacture just a few weeks from his birthday had some appeal, but I decided to continue trying to find one from the right year. Many of the online sellers I've contacted ship directly from a warehouse and cannot check the serial. As time continues to slip away, I've been trying to contact sellers with a high asking price first in hopes that they move less inventory. I really would like NIB if possible.
I would gladly continue discussing options for locating the gun I'm looking for. Should the thread be moved?
 
No enforceable law in AZ against it.
But you have to remember AZ was ground zero for the "let the guns walk" fast and furious scandal. So sellers might be a little twitchy when it comes to anything that doesn't easily fit into one of their predetermined customer categories.

I would figure out make and model that you think would be a good gift, make sure it was in production during that time, get a range of serial numbers for that time frame.
And just go shopping around.

My story would be I had xyz gun, really liked it, it got stolen, broken, boat accident, fire, whatever and want one as close as possible to the date of manufactur of the one that's gone.
 
dogtown tom, I can believe that serial number hunters can be aggravating, and I wish I could find the information I want without troubling a seller with a serial number request. When a seller goes out of his/her way to send the serial number to me, as this seller did, a response letting the seller know that I received the message and expressing my gratitude for the efforts extended seems like common courtesy. It was after this last message that I was blocked, which makes me question if it was actually the serial number request that was the "problem".
From my original post
Ken73 said:
Seller responded with serial number. I responded that I believed that serial number was manufactured in 2013. I thanked seller for checking, offered a compliment on the nice rifle, but mentioned that it was not made the year my little boy was born. Seller’s reply (in all caps): OMG, BLOCKED FOREVER.
Click to expand...
 
deadin said:
How about giving us a hint as to just which specific model you are interested in. Who knows, someone here might have one they are willing to pass on...........
Click to expand...

First choice: Henry lever action .22 Magnum, model H001M
 
Ken73 said:
dogtown tom, I can believe that serial number hunters can be aggravating, and I wish I could find the information I want without troubling a seller with a serial number request. When a seller goes out of his/her way to send the serial number to me, as this seller did, a response letting the seller know that I received the message and expressing my gratitude for the efforts extended seems like common courtesy. It was after this last message that I was blocked, which makes me question if it was actually the serial number request that was the "problem".
From my original post
Click to expand...
Well, the online seller isn't the one to make the call on whether your transaction is legit or an attempted straw purchase........that would be your local FFL who would handle the transfer.
 
dogtown tom said:
Forget the hunt for the matching birthyear............Henry will occasionally let the buyer choose their own serial number.
"KenJr9May2017"
Click to expand...
That’s what I intend to do for my son’s first rifle. They limit the character count to 12 according to customer service.
 
I don't have anything to add. I was touched by the op's idea - I think that's an outstanding idea, and intrigued by the replies. This made me realize the amount of insight and experience available on this forum.

Good job guys.
 
Thank you to all for the suggestions. Original idea was to find a rifle made the very day he was born. A call to Henry (about the day after he was born) confirmed that they made Big Boy rifles that day, and I set out to find a rimfire with a manufacture date as close as possible. I wish the original idea would have worked out, but since it did not, a custom serial number might be better than a birthyear model. No rush with the custom serial number option.

The big concern was that I was not missing something in the law. Whatever I do, I want it to be legal.

Thanks again everyone!
 
Okay, it appears that the O/P has his question answered to his satisfaction. Is there any other relevant LEGAL comments to be made?
If none appear in short order, I will close the thread.
 
Doing this is Legal under Federal Laws, but what State Laws? Don't some States outright forbid doing this at all?
 
BTW, there is a company that makes special henrys with personal serial numbers, Looking at them my self. Google "henry heirloom" and it will pop up. Sportsmen outdoor super store. i will post a link in a few mins. I am getting one my self. They will start in august and will be ready by Christmas.
 
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