Browning Hi-Power has gone out of production...The passing of a firearms Icon

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rodinal220 said:
Does anybody know for sure that FNH has stopped making P-35s? I know Browning (BACO) has stopped buying and selling them, they never made them. The reason I ask is I know several people who have purchased custom BHPs from Novaks Inc since Browning announced they were stopping the sale of BHPs, these were not customer supplied pistols but ready to go shop models. All the pistols I looked at were brand new MKIII type pistols, FNH marked , not Browning marked, Imported by Novaks Inc .

I remember when CDNN briefly had brand new FNH marked Hi-powers for like 450-499? some years back and Browning complained, that was the end of that.
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It is my understanding that the tooling was end of life. FN had to decide if they want to invest in the new tooling or let it go. It is my understanding that since most of the major contracts for the BHP had sunsetted they let it go. The commercial side of market was not enough to support the cost. Plus they are making a lot more $$$ from the FN plastic pistols lines.

I have never seen a Novak imported BHP. They mark their pistols with their logo but I do not believe they are setup to an importer of firearms. It is my understanding that they typically using old new stock guns or used guns for their custom builds like everyone else these days.
 
It’s my understanding that all the custom guys bought up the last hi powers at the end of production and their customer offering are these guns.
 
dogtown tom, I'm thinking you might be the person to ask this question of:

Is it true that the T-series are considered to be the cream of the crop for commercial Hi-Powers? This one was made in 1968 and it has never been fired. I think is is probably the most beautifully polished and blued standard production pistol I have ever held. I desperately wish I had the box and bill of sale, but I have been friends with the original purchaser for 35 years. He never fired the gun. The finish is at 99%. It would be 100 but the gun has been in and out of the case to be admired so many times, there is the faintest bit of edge wear at the front of the slide. There is also a small dent in the lower, front, right grip.

I did him a rather large favor last year and he gave me the gun as a thank you.
 

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Yes, it was an icon and I'll miss it
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Back when the BHP MKIII was still in production I had new ones in my hands a few times for the $1,000 asking price, and I flaked on them each time. I wish I hadn’t now, I definitely have room for a 3rd one.
 
tark said:
dogtown tom, I'm thinking you might be the person to ask this question of:

Is it true that the T-series are considered to be the cream of the crop for commercial Hi-Powers? This one was made in 1968 and it has never been fired. I think is is probably the most beautifully polished and blued standard production pistol I have ever held. I desperately wish I had the box and bill of sale, but I have been friends with the original purchaser for 35 years. He never fired the gun. The finish is at 99%. It would be 100 but the gun has been in and out of the case to be admired so many times, there is the faintest bit of edge wear at the front of the slide. There is also a small dent in the lower, front, right grip.

I did him a rather large favor last year and he gave me the gun as a thank you.
Click to expand...

I can answer the question with a few facts and then with my opinion. Many people consider the T series to be the best of the commercial BHPs with an external extractor. There are however T series and then there are T series. They are not all the same. All poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles. The T series was introduced in 1962-1963. The "T" is nothing more than an inventory control aid for FN. Just like when they changed to the C series. By the time the T series was introduced FN had already moved to salt bluing. They were no longer doing the rust bluing on the earlier BHPs. They did this to speed up the process. The salt blue used by FN produced a black-blue finish which is a major appeal of the "early" T series guns. This is the deep blue that people prize.These guns hand a high level of hand polishing as well as a high level of hand fitting and finishing. This ended somewhere in 1969.

This is where the waters get muddied and this hand polishing and higher level of fit and finished ended somewhere in 1969. T series frames and slides were used up until 1972. C series frames and slide appear in 1969. The transition from T series to C was not a single point in time but about a 2-3 year overlap where both were produced. Again the T & C designation was nothing more than an inventory system for FN. It did not denote a fundamental design or production change.

At some point in 1969-1970 FN stopped hand polishing BHPs. They went to an automated polishing system to speed up production. Bluing then changed over to electrolyte bluing. So what is the difference between a 1969 T series and a 1969 C series? The answer is a letter. Nothing else. However people will pay more for a 1969 T series than a 1969 C series because of the believe that they are the same as guns produced from 1962-1968 with hand polishing and salt bluing. To make matters worse some T series made in 1969 will be salt bluing. Others will not. If you are buying a 1969-1972 T series you have to look at is closely before paying a premium. I would not buy a T series post 1968 and pay a major premium for it. Earlier T series are more sought after by knowledgeable collectors. Later Ts are really no different than C series guns except that they always have a ring hammer.

So to answer your question IMHO a 1962-1968 T series are the pistols which are the cream of the crop. They are the best of the batch but only from a collectors standpoint. They are not any more accurate than other BHPs. They are not as durable as a forged frame MKII or MKIII. They are definitely not as durable as a cast frame MKIII. They have a poor safety and they have poor sights. They are in all honestly not great shooters. To turn them into modern shooters you have to modify them ruining their collector value. They make wonderful safe queens but if you are looking for a working shooting pistols they are not a good choice IMHO unless you are going to customize them.

Another thing that also makes them prized as base guns for customization is that the serial number on the frame is located just under the ejection port. In 1971 the serial number on the frame was moved to the grip strap. If you are looking to customize a BHP with checkering most smiths will not move a serial number so they will only checker a gun with the T series or early C series location. The other exceptions are Practicals and hard chromed pistols. Something about the hard chromed framed causes them to use the T series location.

Yours is a beautiful example. Enjoy it. It originally came in a leather pouch. The *W is an inspectors mark which was used by Nicolas Wolfs from 1952-1968. That means that the barrel and the frame were inspected before 1969 when the *W was retired. These codes tell you when it was inspected and approved but not necessarily when it was assembled in 1968. You often need to put the pieces of the puzzle together to accurately date a BHP. Most of the "charts" do not account for the overlap or account for FNs lax record keeping.

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Electricmo said:
It’s my understanding that all the custom guys bought up the last hi powers at the end of production and their customer offering are these guns.
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It is my understanding that at one point Nighthawk bought everything that was left.
 
rodinal220 said:
I remember when CDNN briefly had brand new FNH marked Hi-powers for like 450-499? some years back and Browning complained, that was the end of that.
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I recall those, but I think they were primarily Safety Fast System (SFS) guns.
 
Jim Watson said:
What is "electrolyte bluing?"
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It is a process that FN references in internal documents. It is mentioned in Anthony Vanerlinden Book FN Browning Pistols. I believe is simply is a name for the more modern process of bluing that FN adopted in 1969-1970
 
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WVsig said:
I have never seen a Novak imported BHP. They mark their pistols with their logo but I do not believe they are setup to an importer of firearms. It is my understanding that they typically using old new stock guns or used guns for their custom builds like everyone else these days.
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The guns were new and they did have importation marks from Novaks.
 
rodinal220 said:
The guns were new and they did have importation marks from Novaks.
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Pics? It is possible that they did import some. The tell would be the date code in the serial number. A pic would confirm DOB of the pistol. I would guess that they could have imported some Old new stock guns that were sold commercially in Europe. Otherwise FN in Columbia, SC or Fredericksburg, VA would have simply imported them and sold them to Novak.

In the end I don't think it matters because they are no longer producing the gun in any real numbers. I would not completely blow my mind to find that FN has some parts would could be assembled into complete guns but that is not going to be a regular thing. The other tell is that certain replacement parts are no longer available at Browning because FN stopped production of those part 2 years ago.
 
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rodinal220 said:
I don't have any current pics ( I'll try and get some) but here is what I have seen on recent builds from Novaks. They even have the serial number moved from the front strap to right side of the frame so the front strap can be stippled.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/960476234/novak-custom-hi-power.htm
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That is an FN import gun. That is where the serial number is for FN rollmarked guns intended for import into the US. They also do not say assembled in Portugal even though they have been since around 1972-1973. That gun was imported by FN in Columbia, SC. The Novak stamp on the rear of the slide is not an import mark. It is a rollmark to show Novak did the work. You can tell because it does not state the city and state of importation. If it was an import mark it would say Novak Parkersburg, WV. That is a perfect example of the guns which were blown out at CDNN for $400-$500 that many people refer to. They were imported by FN and marked Columbia, SC of Fredericksburg, VA.

You can almost see the import mark in this pic. It is just in front of the slide stop.

wm_4550894.jpg

It looks like this:

pix927751280.jpg

Most people will stipple any BHP. People will not checker them with a serial number on the grip strap. All of these have stippling on the front and rear of the grip straps an all of them have the serial number on the front grip strap. The smith puts a boarder around it.

Here is a pic of Yost checkering. Not my gun. The others that follow are from my personal collection.

sr_5-copy.jpg

sr_1-copy.jpg

Yost Stippling on a forged frame MKIII

i3x0y3g.jpg

Don Williams stippling on a Alloy FN

1nRteZJ.jpg

0MNmRbB.jpg

Garthewaite Stippling on a MKIII

sXWprkP.jpg

Man @sabbfan get a hold of that guy with a similar user name to get in here and back me up. LOL
 
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On your second pic, on the lower left dust cover area, the guns I saw were marked Novaks (not the logo) and their address. I know what an import mark looks like versus a makers mark. The GA pic (add states a 2005 pistol build) was the best I could find minus the Novak Parkersburg, WV. import mark on the lower left frame/dust cover.

I find it hard to believe that FNH has totally stopped P-35 production either complete pistols or parts. I heard the same thing about IMI/IWI stopping production on Uzis, turned out to be not so true.
 
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rodinal220 said:
All the pistols I looked at were brand new MKIII type pistols, FNH marked , not Browning marked, Imported by Novaks Inc .
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I would love to see a picture of an HP marked "Imported by Novaks, Inc." All the Hi Powers on the Novak website are marked "Browning Arms"
(they do have a Novaks logo at the right rea of the slide.

I remember when CDNN briefly had brand new FNH marked Hi-powers for like 450-499? some years back and Browning complained, that was the end of that.
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1. Those were $399 FN Hi Powers imported by FNMI (FN Manufacturing Industries, later named FNUSA and more recently FNAmerica) and intended for LE/Gov sale. FN thought it a good idea to have a seperate company market its handguns as they viewed Browning Arms as a "sporting arms" division.
2. Once FN realized US LE was enamored with polymer framed guns with a much larger capacity than the Hi Power, they gave up on the poorly conceived marketing plan.
3. CDNN was back then, primarily a liquidator of firearms and accessories that were slow movers, discontinued SKU's or simply guns that didn't sell. Gun dealers, distributors and manufacturers would sell to CDNN to generate cash.
4. CDNN didn't stop selling those FN Hi Powers because Browning complained. They stopped because they sold them all. And Browning wouldn't have complained anyway...........FN owns Browning.
 
rodinal220 said:
On your second pic, on the lower left dust cover area, the guns I saw were marked Novaks (not the logo) and their address. I know what an import mark looks like versus a makers mark. The GA pic (add states a 2005 pistol build) was the best I could find minus the Novak Parkersburg, WV. import mark on the lower left frame/dust cover.

I find it hard to believe that FNH has totally stopped P-35 production either complete pistols or parts. I heard the same thing about IMI/IWI stopping production on Uzis, turned out to be not so true.
Click to expand...

Just because you find it hard to believe does not make it so. There is no evidence that new BHPs produced between late 2017 and 2020. If they exist then I would love to see a pic. As I said there might be a few old new stock guns floating around but the fact is that the production of the BHP in any substantial quantity has not happen in the last 3 years.

Does that mean it will never happen no but when you look at the market it makes no sense for FN. If you know the history of the BHPs production in the 1990s and 2000 you would know it was highly tied to large military contracts. The commercial market for the BHP has always been a drop in the bucket. The demise of the BHP has happened more than once and each time it was only revived by a large military contract which created the economy of scale needed to tool up. There are almost no major military or police force in the world today fielding the BHP has their primary side arm. So you might see a contract over run make its way here from guns still in inventory but as I stated before major parts production has stopped at FN Herstal.

There were rumors in late 2019 that is was going to make a return but they has not happened and honestly I doubt it will. There is too much money to be made in large military contracts all over the world with tactical plastic wonder 9mms. Civilian sales are not what moves the needle at FN. The are one of the worlds largest "military" contractors they are not going to lose money bringing back the BHP. IMHO.

I will await the pics of that Novak Import mark.... :thumbup:
 
Also please don't get me wrong I would love to see the FN made BHP return to the US market but I just don't see it happening. What I see is a lot of nostalgia for the pistol now that it is discontinued. People who ignored it for years now are interesting and buying them because of MOFO, fear of missing out. It has unnecessarily driven up the price on guns that where not effected by the end of production. The fact remains that the MSRP of a Epoxy MKIII was $999 when they discontinued them. I saw guns sit in gun stores for years NIB at $899. They just sat while Glocks, Sigs, Beretta, Springfield XDs, Rugers etc... all flew off the shelves. They only moved once they were discontinued. I believe 100% that the desire to own one seen these days by so many would disappear if they were in regular production again. I will also add that I have never bought a NIB BHP. Every single one has been bought used for a lot less than $999 unless it came already customized with providence. ;)
 
WVsig said:
I can answer the question with a few facts and then with my opinion. Many people consider the T series to be the best of the commercial BHPs with an external extractor. There are however T series and then there are T series. They are not all the same. All poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles. The T series was introduced in 1962-1963. The "T" is nothing more than an inventory control aid for FN. Just like when they changed to the C series. By the time the T series was introduced FN had already moved to salt bluing. They were no longer doing the rust bluing on the earlier BHPs. They did this to speed up the process. The salt blue used by FN produced a black-blue finish which is a major appeal of the "early" T series guns. This is the deep blue that people prize.These guns hand a high level of hand polishing as well as a high level of hand fitting and finishing. This ended somewhere in 1969.

This is where the waters get muddied and this hand polishing and higher level of fit and finished ended somewhere in 1969. T series frames and slides were used up until 1972. C series frames and slide appear in 1969. The transition from T series to C was not a single point in time but about a 2-3 year overlap where both were produced. Again the T & C designation was nothing more than an inventory system for FN. It did not denote a fundamental design or production change.

At some point in 1969-1970 FN stopped hand polishing BHPs. They went to an automated polishing system to speed up production. Bluing then changed over to electrolyte bluing. So what is the difference between a 1969 T series and a 1969 C series? The answer is a letter. Nothing else. However people will pay more for a 1969 T series than a 1969 C series because of the believe that they are the same as guns produced from 1962-1968 with hand polishing and salt bluing. To make matters worse some T series made in 1969 will be salt bluing. Others will not. If you are buying a 1969-1972 T series you have to look at is closely before paying a premium. I would not buy a T series post 1968 and pay a major premium for it. Earlier T series are more sought after by knowledgeable collectors. Later Ts are really no different than C series guns except that they always have a ring hammer.

So to answer your question IMHO a 1962-1968 T series are the pistols which are the cream of the crop. They are the best of the batch but only from a collectors standpoint. They are not any more accurate than other BHPs. They are not as durable as a forged frame MKII or MKIII. They are definitely not as durable as a cast frame MKIII. They have a poor safety and they have poor sights. They are in all honestly not great shooters. To turn them into modern shooters you have to modify them ruining their collector value. They make wonderful safe queens but if you are looking for a working shooting pistols they are not a good choice IMHO unless you are going to customize them.

Another thing that also makes them prized as base guns for customization is that the serial number on the frame is located just under the ejection port. In 1971 the serial number on the frame was moved to the grip strap. If you are looking to customize a BHP with checkering most smiths will not move a serial number so they will only checker a gun with the T series or early C series location. The other exceptions are Practicals and hard chromed pistols. Something about the hard chromed framed causes them to use the T series location.

Yours is a beautiful example. Enjoy it. It originally came in a leather pouch. The *W is an inspectors mark which was used by Nicolas Wolfs from 1952-1968. That means that the barrel and the frame were inspected before 1969 when the *W was retired. These codes tell you when it was inspected and approved but not necessarily when it was assembled in 1968. You often need to put the pieces of the puzzle together to accurately date a BHP. Most of the "charts" do not account for the overlap or account for FNs lax record keeping.

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Thank you very very much WVsig!! I am an ignoramus about Hi-powers beyond knowing that J.B. had almost nothing to do with their development and was dead years before the first one was made. I had never owned a Hi-power before this one . Never fired one either. I may croak without ever having fired one, because I'm not shooting this one! I have too much collector blood in me. I have a C-96 Mauser with matching wooden holster in the same condition as this gun, and with the same round count. The interior of that one is still gooped up with cosmoline. I have a "shooter" C-96 that I enjoy. Guess I'll have to get a "shooter" Hi-Power. Thanks again!!!
 
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tark said:
Thank you very very much WVsig!! I am an ignoramus about Hi-powers beyond knowing that J.B. had almost nothing to do with their development and was dead years before the first one was made. I had never owned a Hi-power before this one . Never fired one either. I may croak without ever having fired one, because I'm not shooting this one! I have too much collector blood in me. I have a C-96 Mauser with matching wooden holster in the same condition as this gun, and with the same round count. The interior of that one is still gooped up with cosmoline. I have a "shooter" C-96 that I enjoy. Guess I'll have to get a "shooter" Hi-Power. Thanks again!!!
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You have a great looking T series. Enjoy it whatever way makes you happy!
 
bannockburn said:
tark

Find a used MK.II or Mk.III that looks like mine does and believe me you won't have a second thought about shooting it!
View attachment 917348
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That's a fine looker, bannockburn! I'd love to find one like it but I'm a bit cash strapped right now. My monthly royalty checks from Conoco-Phillips have been in the toilet lately.
WVsig said:
I don't have a second thought about shooting this one... LOL Its worth more than a unshot T series. :evil:

View attachment 917359

View attachment 917360

View attachment 917361

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View attachment 917363
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Beautiful, WVsig!! Looks like that pistol has had some very high end custom work done! I worked for Les Baer for 21 years and I know fine custom work when I see it. I see pins and screws and the extractor that looks to have been nitre blued?

May I ask who did it? Perhaps yourself?
 
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