What were the best and worst bolt guns of WW2?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Several 8X57mmJS Carcanos for sale on Gunbroker.com ATM, I have no idea when / where / who for. But they show up there regularly.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/857526431

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868418297

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868418300

Plus the Japanese Carcano which I think was brought up.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868324549

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/868398852

Now that 6.5X55mm M38 has entered as something employed in the WWII era, that would have been my personal pick to lug around if restricted to bolt action. Truth be told I'd likely be serving behind the lines regardless and issued a handgun, carbine, or submachine gun (or maybe more than one of those options).
 
The Italian rifles were unquestionably the worst.

But then, they only used them to surrender with.
 
Gunny the submachine you are handling (STG44) is just a beautiful.
I had the opportunity to see them for first time at Musée de l'Armée des Invalides in France many moons ago.
Get us more pics, please.
Still today, I want one, shoot once at least or handling one.

My intake on best rifle
Garand, caliber, reliability
K98, precision, reliability
Sweden Mauser, caliber, precision, reliability

CZhen
 
The Italian rifles were unquestionably the worst.

But then, they only used them to surrender with.

Funny...you left out the French rifles to surrender with....or are they getting some respect now that gun jesus is so popular and the dolts that made comments like only dropped once are now saying just how good they are.
 
As I recall, the French forces in North Africa were brought on as "allies" after we landed there. o_O
Not sure how helpful they were overall in the campaign but at least they probably carried their bolt action rifles there.
 
The Mosin overly complex?!?! :rofl::rofl::rofl: Surly you jest. :rofl:

Nope. How many parts does it take to get the cartridges from the bottom of the magazine into the chamber? And how many machining operations does it take to build those parts? And the rest of the receiver? That's what I meant by overly complex.

Now, on the part of the soldier... it's almost as simple to work as a Glock! Not really smooth or "nice," but... there are what, three controls? A trigger, a safety-thing, and a bolt handle? Or four, if you count the bayonet lug.

Now, those four controls are not that nice... The bolt handle is too short, the trigger isn't nice, the safety is not great, and the bayonet lug is... well, that one is pretty good ;)

And the stripper clips are lame!
 
I grew up shooting Springfield Model 1898 Krag Jorgensens and Remington Model 1903A3s. Loved the smooth action of the Krag but like the overall balance and handling of the Model 1903A3. Had a Japanese Type 38 Carbine and while it was alright it just didn't compare to the overall design and build quality of the U.S. bolt action service rifles.
 
While the Finnish Mosin is the best Mosin out there... It's still a Mosin. Yes, it is more accurate, and in this it is better than a Mauser (by period accounts, not my experience); so if you want to rank it above the K98 for this reason I won't come hunt you down and defenestrate you. However, the design is still overly complex,
I agree with Gunny on the 'complexity' of the Mosin, but if you mean to bolt's design, it was to avoid the patents held by a certain Peter Paul Mauser.

Gunny the submachine you are handling (STG44) is just a beautiful.
I had the opportunity to see them for first time at Musée de l'Armée des Invalides in France many moons ago.
Get us more pics, please.
Still today, I want one, shoot once at least or handling one.

My intake on best rifle
Garand, caliber, reliability
K98, precision, reliability
Sweden Mauser, caliber, precision, reliability

CZhen
Again, the Garand is not a bolt action rifle.
 
I agree with Gunny on the 'complexity' of the Mosin, but if you mean to bolt's design, it was to avoid the patents held by a certain Peter Paul Mauser.

Nope, take a look at the magazine spring/follower system. That's what I was primarily referring to. How many different parts can you identify?

It isn't bad for an 1891 design, but by 1945 (or even 1898 or 1893) that magazine spring is more complex than necessary.
 
For handguns I would say the Russian Nagant or the Japanese 8MM double action only revolver. Both countries seem to believe the safest handgun was one that required a 20 pound IMG_1082.jpg plus trigger pull.
 
I agree with Gunny on the 'complexity' of the Mosin, but if you mean to bolt's design, it was to avoid the patents held by a certain Peter Paul Mauser.


Again, the Garand is not a bolt action rifle.
Yes, the Garand is not a bolt action rifle. But let’s just say it whipped cream on the top of the pie in this topic.;)
 
Gunny the submachine you are handling (STG44) is just a beautiful.
I had the opportunity to see them for first time at Musée de l'Armée des Invalides in France many moons ago.
Get us more pics, please.
Still today, I want one, shoot once at least or handling one.

My intake on best rifle
Garand, caliber, reliability
K98, precision, reliability
Sweden Mauser, caliber, precision, reliability

CZhen
Here’s a couple of pics. I have 160 rounds of ammo for it and will try to shoot it within the next few weeks. I’ll get more pics then.
C0489DDD-9630-4073-A65E-91CA5C5807E8.jpeg FEECFFE2-E894-41DC-A309-1D0ACA43616E.jpeg
 
Nope, take a look at the magazine spring/follower system. That's what I was primarily referring to. How many different parts can you identify?

It isn't bad for an 1891 design, but by 1945 (or even 1898 or 1893) that magazine spring is more complex than necessary.
True, but it is easily removable for unloading and cleaning. It was designed the way it was to provide even and sufficient pressure to work with the Interruptor/Ejector, a necessary evil (or so Leon Nagant thought) to eliminate rim lock.
Now consider the Russian tendency to never let go of something that works. (Unless you are a Russian General in the early 1990's......then everything was for sale) Consider the level of care for the Russian soldier in WWI (or WWII, for that matter ) or their Arsenal workers and Armorers, for that matter. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It took them until 1938 to get serious about a carbine. Also, consider that the Mosin was basically the Berdan II with a modernized stock, and magazine. Now factor in the costs in redesigning or replacing the Mosin, (they actually did redesign it several times-1930, 1938, 1944, but did not change the magazine) and it makes sense why they left it virtually the same for all those years. They used the Nagant revolver all through WWII, and internal Police units were issued them well into the 60's. They still use the round used in the Mosin in their MG's.
 
Nope, take a look at the magazine spring/follower system. That's what I was primarily referring to. How many different parts can you identify?

It isn't bad for an 1891 design, but by 1945 (or even 1898 or 1893) that magazine spring is more complex than necessary.
The magazine spring/follower system it still pretty simple for the time. There are just two flat springs and three parts.
The most complicated part of the action is the interrupter and that is still pretty simple.

Oh! The bayonet lug on the rifle it the front sight on the 91/30.
And the action is very smooth even with the short bolt handle. Most people have never fired a non refurbished 91/30. Most of the refurbished rifles need some work on the extractor so that they don’t stick.
1694E87A-E19D-4C06-BDF5-CDB345927324.jpeg FA73A0E3-D07E-4E54-BFDD-81DC8C7417AD.jpeg
 
As usual in questions of this sort, one wonders "Best? In what regard?" That is the sticky part.

The Japanese rifles suffer from the Japan civilization having no tradition involving firearms; certainly not at the time. For that matter, neither did the Russians. Looking at the Mosin-Nagant Rifle and the Russian/Soviet handguns, one finds them quite similar to the Japanese Type's 38 and 99 and Nambu handguns. Made with an eye toward 'utility' on a superficial basis and only the briefest attempts at finishing. Both nations' weapons are crude looking and rather ugly. Make that really ugly. Neither groups of rifles or handguns had any thought to trigger use, and the sights are about as dismal. However, I would rate the 1891 Russian rifle very high in the "... ran out of ammo and am now clubbing anyone in my reach ..." category. They are sturdy.

Just about all the Mauser rifles (I'm thinking in terms of the South America 7x57mm rifles, the Swedish rifles, the Argentine models and so forth) were gorgeous. Even the WWI produced 1898 was smooth, silky and well finished. The bolts worked well, the rifles fed well, and they shot to much the same place. If one could figure out the barleycorn sights. And the triggers were long and creaky, but could be learned.

Italy used the 1891 Carcano much of WWII. The 6.5x52mm Carcano threw a 160 grain bullet at about 2300 fps. So it was about the same as the 6.5mm Swede ballistically. Any condemnation of power is based on lack of information or a spurious comparison to something else. The trigger wasn't great as issued and quite possibly the training wasn't up to par, either. It shoots okay, but not impressively.

The U. S. rifles had good aperture sights. Trigger pulls were mass produced, but not as bad as they might be. (Not as good as they might be, either.) They were well made, rugged and reliable. They were quite accurate as well.

The French were adaptive and quick to 'evolve' mechanically. The WWI era Lebel and Berthier rifles were more or less slugs, but born of a 'hurry up' and bureaucratic mentality. The M36 MAS was much better in design and manufacture. The MAS would be more admired had the French been able to use them much.

The No 4 (Lee-Enfield) rifle stood up and delivered as needed. It wasn't as accurate as the U. S. rifles in a point target sense, but would usually deliver 'minute of villain' accuracy in combat. Which frankly, is sufficient unto the day. They were reliable and rugged as well. And (foreshadowing the Soviet Union) they were manufactured, along with ammunition all over the Empire. Were I entering an area where I knew I was going to be fighting for my life, I'd opt for a No 4.

For building a sporter (replace the stock, sights, trigger and refinish), I'd likely favor the Mauser. Except for the Mannlicher, which seems to have ended shortly after WWI. Target shooting - the NRA "National Match" course, I'd rather have a M1903A3 Springfield (with match armorer preparation). For marching, which ever one is lightest.
 
Now consider the Russian tendency to never let go of something that works. Consider the level of care for the Russian soldier in WWI (or WWII, for that matter ) (snip)
Old joke about the Mosin.
"Do you know why they made the Mosin butts so wide?"
"No. Why?"
"So the farm boys would know which end to put against their shoulder."

:rimshot!:
 
True, but it is easily removable for unloading and cleaning. It was designed the way it was to provide even and sufficient pressure to work with the Interruptor/Ejector, a necessary evil (or so Leon Nagant thought) to eliminate rim lock.
Now consider the Russian tendency to never let go of something that works. (Unless you are a Russian General in the early 1990's......then everything was for sale) Consider the level of care for the Russian soldier in WWI (or WWII, for that matter ) or their Arsenal workers and Armorers, for that matter. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It took them until 1938 to get serious about a carbine. Also, consider that the Mosin was basically the Berdan II with a modernized stock, and magazine. Now factor in the costs in redesigning or replacing the Mosin, (they actually did redesign it several times-1930, 1938, 1944, but did not change the magazine) and it makes sense why they left it virtually the same for all those years.

Right. And that is why it gets to be the bottom of my list for what I would have wanted to be issued as a grunt.

Don't forget every pin and screw had to be manufactured. We aren't just comparing two leaf springs and three parts to everyone else's rifles, we've got pins and a screw too. The Mauser and 1903 magazine baseplate come off for unloading and cleaning, and they are not difficult. On top of that we have one spring, and one magazine follower, and that's it. I'm not saying the Mosin doesn't work, I'm not even saying that it is more complex than it needed to be, I'm saying that it is more complex than other designs in use in 1945. These other designs had huge (unfair!) advantages due to their more recent development (rimless ammo, primarily) and it shows. I'm not denying that the Mosin had an impressive run all the way back from 1891. I'm saying that it makes the bottom of the list of what I'd want to be issued if I were a grunt.

And yes, the Mauser bayonet lug stinks.
 
[
Funny...you left out the French rifles to surrender with....or are they getting some respect now that gun jesus is so popular and the dolts that made comments like only dropped once are now saying just how good they are.

I suppose that I just mentioned the Italians because they seemed to embrace surrender like they embraced soccer.
 
Italy used the 1891 Carcano much of WWII. The 6.5x52mm Carcano threw a 160 grain bullet at about 2300 fps. So it was about the same as the 6.5mm Swede ballistically. Any condemnation of power is based on lack of information or a spurious comparison to something else. The trigger wasn't great as issued and quite possibly the training wasn't up to par, either. It shoots okay, but not impressively.

Remember that unlike most other service cartridges at this time, which had long since moved to spitzer bullets, the 6.5 Carcano still used the old-fashioned round nose jacketed bullet, the least effective type, perfectly designed to drill a neat, small hole. Combine this with being only .26 caliber, I wouldn't doubt it lacked stopping power by comparison.
 
Most people have never fired a non refurbished 91/30. Most of the refurbished rifles need some work on the extractor so that they don’t stick.
Gunny, my New England Westinghouse, with Finnish "SA" acceptance stamps, is cranky with steel cased ammo but fairly smooth with brass cases ammo. I'm thinking if anyone here would know why it's you;

Any thoughts?
 
Gunny, thank you.
Next time I will pay the ammo and the ribs. If you let me shoot few rounds on it, wife wanted to visit LA long time ago.
Importing new from Germany was impossible few years ago.
I do still suffer the itchy for stg44.22 cal to compensate the lack of options.
Share more pics when you can.
 
Gunny, is that a real STG 44 you are holding in post # 43? I think I see the sliding mode of fire selector button in the pic. That thing looks "as issued!" We have three STG 44s in the museum.....but all three are in a deplorable condition, as opposed to our FG42s which are just the opposite.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top