I took my boys shooting today for the first time. My older son does GREAT with our Savage Model 7a--he's a natural and had a blast. My younger son really enjoyed shooting it too, but he currently lacks the hand strength to load magazines all afternoon or to charge the 7a (which has a small, very stiff bolt lever). And he would like something lighter too. I was thinking about a 22LR single shot like the Savage Rascal or Henry Mini Bolt for him. Any suggestions on those two, or other similar options? Or am I approaching this the wrong way?
22LR single shots
- Thread starter Mitlov
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DocRock
member
The Rascal is remarkable. Talk about value for money.
It has an excellent trigger and can be very accurate. Unless they've made changes to it, the rear aperture sight is a fiddly, tinny, PITA. But it works. My daughter wanted one because it came with a pink stock (later Duracoted black for her brother). I put a Lyman globe sight on the front and after adjusting the aperture to 50 yards, it was very, very good. In fact, my daughter competed in a league with one at age 12 for several months and held her own against kids using very high quality Anschutz rifles.
But one of its strengths is also it's weaknesses. It is unbelievably light. And while that's good for little kids, it also makes it less stable.
I would give the Rascal an 8 out of possible 10 for quality and suitability and an 11 out of 10 for value for money. Strongly endorse.
It has an excellent trigger and can be very accurate. Unless they've made changes to it, the rear aperture sight is a fiddly, tinny, PITA. But it works. My daughter wanted one because it came with a pink stock (later Duracoted black for her brother). I put a Lyman globe sight on the front and after adjusting the aperture to 50 yards, it was very, very good. In fact, my daughter competed in a league with one at age 12 for several months and held her own against kids using very high quality Anschutz rifles.
But one of its strengths is also it's weaknesses. It is unbelievably light. And while that's good for little kids, it also makes it less stable.
I would give the Rascal an 8 out of possible 10 for quality and suitability and an 11 out of 10 for value for money. Strongly endorse.
He looked at the Rascal and similar ones and it turns out they're physically too small for him. He has a lot of hand strength issues (long story) but he's big for a 10-year-old so it just wasn't a good ergonomic fit.
He tried a bunch of different 22s to see what fit him, and we ended up settling on a Marlin Model 60. The charging handle is a lot easier for him to operate than on our Savage Model 7a, and the tubular magazine is a lot easier for his fingers than the Savage's detachable box magazines. On paper it doesn't seem that different than the Model 7a, but in person it was just a lot easier for him to handle, so we got that. He's super excited to have "his" first rifle. I know this is a bit of detour from the original post, but thanks for the response anyway!
He tried a bunch of different 22s to see what fit him, and we ended up settling on a Marlin Model 60. The charging handle is a lot easier for him to operate than on our Savage Model 7a, and the tubular magazine is a lot easier for his fingers than the Savage's detachable box magazines. On paper it doesn't seem that different than the Model 7a, but in person it was just a lot easier for him to handle, so we got that. He's super excited to have "his" first rifle. I know this is a bit of detour from the original post, but thanks for the response anyway!
MedWheeler
Member
I see the Marlin 60 worked for you. Another option, for anyone else perusing, would be the Mossberg 702 Plinkster. Very impressive reliability, easy-to-use sights, and a larger charging handle than you typically find. It's a neat, lightweight, slick-handling little carbine.
But, yes, it does use detachable stick magazines, a positive from which is that the follower locks the slide open after the last shot, so no over-fire dry-fires.
But, yes, it does use detachable stick magazines, a positive from which is that the follower locks the slide open after the last shot, so no over-fire dry-fires.
Varminterror
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- 14,857
Life is all about perspective - I would rephrase the above based on my personal experience thusly:
“The Rascal is a remarkably poor value for the money.”
Because for the money, you’re not very far from buying one of a handful of the more popular repeaters out there, with better quality, better sights, and better features than the Rascal.
So when I initially read the OP, I immediately considered THIS to be the operative question:
I would say yes - the Rascal, Cricket, or Mini Bolt are the wrong approach.
Personally, I recommend highly against the Savage Rascal, the Henry Mini Bolt, and the Cricket. They’re overpriced for their feature set, lacking in features, their function does not match their length of pull, and there is an inherent fallacy in the presumed discipline forced on the child by handing them a single shot.
I’ve shared my experiences with these single shot youth rifles as a parent and as instructor here several times, but I really hate seeing unwitting parents or others lured into buying these for kids. Been there, done that, would never do it again, and recommend others avoid that poor path.
First, functional restriction doesn’t teach discipline. If a child is too young to exhibit discipline, they’re too young to be shooting - whether chronologically young, or simply developmentally immature. I have taught children as young as 2 yrs old to shoot with semiautomatic rifles, and I have seen children as old as 45 which simply lack the discipline to handle firearms at all. Putting a governor on a go-kart might limit how fast a kid can drive, but it doesn’t stop them from mashing the pedal to the floor and wanting to go faster. Teach a child discipline, and espouse consequences for failures, and they’ll learn to drive or shoot only as fast as appropriate.
Secondly, even if we DID pretend young kids should be governed by an action, the size of these rifles does not line up with the age of a child which MIGHT acceptably be lacking in discipline. All of these rifles have 11.25 or 11.5” Length of Pull. This is typically suitable for a child somewhere around 12yrs old. Personally, if a 12yr old preteen, two years away from a legal permit-able age to drive themselves to school, lacks sufficient discipline that they can’t be trusted with a repeater, there are far larger issues at hand. As I mentioned, I have coached sufficient discipline into children as young as 2yrs old, and have commonly done well with any child over 5yrs old - these kids can run the rifles safely and responsibly, AND they need LoP’s around 8.5-9”, not 11.5”. So if the mechanism matched the kid (which it doesn’t), then the size still does not.
Of course then, despite being too big for small kids, 11.5” is too small for most adults or even mid-teens, so the rifle becomes this “single serving” device which the child quickly outgrows - spending more money on some other rifle which should have been bought in the first place.
For product value, you’re buying an under-featured rifle, typically poorer quality sights, less availability, and lesser quality stock. Some are now getting D&T’d at the factory for scope mounts, but not all - and the stocks typically don’t well accommodate the cheek risers needed to get a small face high enough for a scope anyway. A Marlin 60 or Ruger 10/22 can be bought for the same money, or within $50 at worst, with several other options falling also nearby - Savage Mark II as another example. One of these full size options with a $50 take-off stock cut down to fit the child until they’re grown is a much better option.
Lots of folks are reportedly happy with the Rascal/Mini/Cricket, but I’ve experienced a lot more folks becoming quickly disenchanted with them (myself included).
DocRock
member
@VT. What's remarkable is how you can be so consistently abrasive and rude. The fact that you do blather on about a subject that you have inadequate knowledge of isn't really remarkable. That you class the Rascal with the lesser firearms you list is but one of your problems. That you imagine a Marlin 60 or 10/22 are capable of Rascal accuracy before extensive modification is simply daft.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Well, one advantage of starting the young-ens off with semiautos is they get plenty of practice with cease-fire and jam-clearing protocol......so theres that.
Gotta say, having cut my teeth on an AR7, it was pretty frustrating and discouraging to me. I can see how it would be a real turnoff to a kid who isnt in love with the sport. Even my daughter, who is an avid shooter, sometimes wants to toss her Marlin M70 downrange, and its not even that bad.
But if you want to spend more time working on the fundamentals of actually shooting, I prefer a bolt gun. Heck, most of them can be used as single shots until the tikes are ready to use the magazine.
Both my girls were pretty fond of my scoped Savage MK2. They didnt seem to mind the lower rate of fire since it was so reliable and accurate.
They are older now and mostly shoot ARs or .410 now, but the patient, methodical rythm of the single-shot bolt gun is still paying dividends.
Gotta say, having cut my teeth on an AR7, it was pretty frustrating and discouraging to me. I can see how it would be a real turnoff to a kid who isnt in love with the sport. Even my daughter, who is an avid shooter, sometimes wants to toss her Marlin M70 downrange, and its not even that bad.
But if you want to spend more time working on the fundamentals of actually shooting, I prefer a bolt gun. Heck, most of them can be used as single shots until the tikes are ready to use the magazine.
Both my girls were pretty fond of my scoped Savage MK2. They didnt seem to mind the lower rate of fire since it was so reliable and accurate.
They are older now and mostly shoot ARs or .410 now, but the patient, methodical rythm of the single-shot bolt gun is still paying dividends.
bamajoey
Member
May I suggest a CZ Scout. Its smaller in size and is made with quality workmanship. Maybe Varminterror won't rip this one too bad.
Ernie Bass
member
So you teach a two year old to shoot a Semi automatic? That is totally unacceptable, ridiculous and just downright dangerous. I think you need to seek out some knowledge about children. Their fine motor skills, ability to focus and on and on. We had two avid gun enthusiast that are Teachers come to our club and give a lecture on Kids, guns and ages of development to focus at certain task and when to start them off start them off with and the types of firearms to start them with. It was a eye opener for many. Children are children and you cannot take back a bullet. There is a lot to learn and a lot of mistakes being made in many areas.So many parents think their child is a exception. That belief with firearms could very well turn out to be deadly.
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
I think Varmint is right.
Try reading it differently, without a predisposition that a human that doesn’t agree with you is wrong.
How is it rude to state you think they are the opposite? How do you state that without vocal inflections to sound jovial, or exasperated at the path you’ve chosen before.
He knows. He’s been there. He’s right.
I have a red Rascal. Bought for my first boy. To small from the get go, but all of them are. He’s thirteen and 6’3”.(All bikes and go karts and toys are all too small for him.
Totally not fair.)
My Mini Amazon picked it up at six and shot it fine until she out grew it at nine. She is eleven and has a full size now.
My little Bear fits it just right. But for how long? My smallest child, still a head an shoulder above all the other kids. Nine looks to be the limit on them.
Secondarily, the only reason my kids like it was the shooting along side my giant target rifle. Both being single shots we were just alike. When the pumps or repeaters come out, they are straight done with the Rascal.
I love that little Rascal, but I am not deluded with it. (Well, maybe a little.)
My scenario is a best case. They are nice. But I should have got three MKIIs and cut the stock down, like mini’s blue one. Which is too small now.
One new and better stock and she is fit for life, on a well built full-size rimfire.
The mini rifles have their place, but it is not as every kids first rifle. Though the makers would love for humans to think that way.
Little Bear prefers pistols anyway, I’m sure I’m a horrible father for letting him love my Buckmark...
I am glad @Mitlov found a rifle that fit his son.
There is a reason we make so many different kinds!
Many happy shooting trips to the both(3!)of you!
VT has no messages posted. And hasn’t been seen in nine years. How do you know he is so lackluster?
You can quote him, he won’t mind.
Try reading it differently, without a predisposition that a human that doesn’t agree with you is wrong.
How is it rude to state you think they are the opposite? How do you state that without vocal inflections to sound jovial, or exasperated at the path you’ve chosen before.
He knows. He’s been there. He’s right.
I have a red Rascal. Bought for my first boy. To small from the get go, but all of them are. He’s thirteen and 6’3”.(All bikes and go karts and toys are all too small for him.
Totally not fair.)My Mini Amazon picked it up at six and shot it fine until she out grew it at nine. She is eleven and has a full size now.
My little Bear fits it just right. But for how long? My smallest child, still a head an shoulder above all the other kids. Nine looks to be the limit on them.
Secondarily, the only reason my kids like it was the shooting along side my giant target rifle. Both being single shots we were just alike. When the pumps or repeaters come out, they are straight done with the Rascal.
I love that little Rascal, but I am not deluded with it. (Well, maybe a little.
)My scenario is a best case. They are nice. But I should have got three MKIIs and cut the stock down, like mini’s blue one. Which is too small now.
One new and better stock and she is fit for life, on a well built full-size rimfire.
The mini rifles have their place, but it is not as every kids first rifle. Though the makers would love for humans to think that way.
Little Bear prefers pistols anyway, I’m sure I’m a horrible father for letting him love my Buckmark...
I am glad @Mitlov found a rifle that fit his son.
There is a reason we make so many different kinds!
Many happy shooting trips to the both(3!)of you!
Because his experience was different than yours? That make it rude?
VT has no messages posted. And hasn’t been seen in nine years. How do you know he is so lackluster?
You can quote him, he won’t mind.
Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
My five year old was shooting a 1911.
You know you can put just one bullet in there, right?
They need to learn. Sometimes you have to teach with what you have. If you don’t get them when they’re interested, someone else will...
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Congrats to you and your son.
I got my first firearms experience back in the day with my dad's Marlin 60 at about age 7 or so.
I prefer to teach kids to shoot using a single shot 22. I have an old Savage Model 120 that I used to teach both of my boys. Another and viable option is a magazine fed bolt action such as the Savage MkII. You can either just load 1 round in the magazine or you can get a single shot adaptor for them. There are quite a few threads over at RimfireCentral about the Savage Rascals and how accurate they are.
I do have to agree that the Rascal, Cricket, Henry Mini are way too small for all but the smallest of kids no matter their age.
I do have to agree that the Rascal, Cricket, Henry Mini are way too small for all but the smallest of kids no matter their age.
I got a lot of advice against buying my Grandson a youth Henry single shot .243. I listened to the inner me. He loves it. When he outgrows it, there are two other boys in line to take it on. There is NOTHING wrong with buying a gun to fit a kid.
Scooter22
Member
Savage Has a youth model MKII with accu trigger. Shorter than the full size but not as tiny as the Rascal.
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/savage-mark-ii-gy-youth-bolt-action-rimfire-rifle
I forgot to mention I have a non accutrigger one and it,s a nice shorter rifle compared to my sons full size. I have a cheap 4x scope on it and with bulk ammo it,ll do quarter size groups or better at 50yds. I never really tried to do any better with it. Hits 9 out of 10 clay pigeons on the 100yd berm.
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/savage-mark-ii-gy-youth-bolt-action-rimfire-rifle
I forgot to mention I have a non accutrigger one and it,s a nice shorter rifle compared to my sons full size. I have a cheap 4x scope on it and with bulk ammo it,ll do quarter size groups or better at 50yds. I never really tried to do any better with it. Hits 9 out of 10 clay pigeons on the 100yd berm.
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Varminterror
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- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
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- 14,857
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy” - Wild Billy Shakespeare
I’ve been an instructor for more than 20 years and have mentored dozens of children into marksmanship. The child has to understand trigger discipline, and the instructor has the obligation of acting appropriately as an RO and putting the child in the right circumstances to remain safe. Not all children are created equally; as I said above, not all are ready at 2, and some aren’t ready at 45. Some are.
You can have your bigoted bias, but I can assure you, many kids younger than the age of 5 are perfectly capable of trigger discipline to sit down to a rifle on a bench and deliver rounds on target safely and efficiently. Not all are, and there’s nothing special about the kids that young I have instructed - other than the fact they know the meaning of no, and they were put in the appropriate environment to begin safely developing a skill.
Cornhusker77
Member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
- Messages
- 624
I think a smaller rifle like the Rascal is good for small kids.
Light, short, it fits them.
Nobody buys one and expects it to be used forever, when the kid outgrows it, move it along, or save it for a grandkid.
Light, short, it fits them.
Nobody buys one and expects it to be used forever, when the kid outgrows it, move it along, or save it for a grandkid.
Ernie Bass
member
You assure me? Quite the opposite.
Obviously commenting that you are a "instructor" just makes everyone just lay down and allow you to instruct children with a firearm? So you believe you have more knowledge in child mental development than people that have spent years in study and teach professionally? Other than just saying you are a instructor what credentials do you posses that quality you for Teaching 5 year olds the dynamics of firearm training. I doubt most can even read or write at that age, much less even pass a simple safety course.
I guess you have free will to do what you want with children. That is on you and the parent. But in no way would I allow you to instruct any children like 5yr olds in my family. And I would encourage any parent to use extreme caution before listening to anyone on the internet that gives such advice. Especially with statements like they have successfully taught two yr. olds.
You comment of they only have to know the "Meaning of No" says quite a bit about your lack of knowledge with children.
Many children suffer from a host of disorders. ODD, OCD and on and on. These are Children.
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Demi-human
maybe likes firearms a little bit…
When the child is ready.
Of course we could push it back to a standard age and handcuff all those children who are not coddled, OCD, ADD, R2d2 or C3Po.
Then we can push back the age to smoke, like we did here in Totalitarian Michigan.
No driving until 26. No Alcohol till 30.
And absolutely no voting until you are a grumpy curmudgeon that allows nothing except the thought of freedom.
If they’re treated like incompetent children till they’re 50, you’ll be dealing with incompetent children until they are 50.
And speaking of credentials, since you allegedly make the decision for your entire family, what is your doctorate in?
Assuming of course, the ridiculous assertion that one must be a child behaviorist to teach them a sport safely.
Must I be a Chef to teach my daughter to cook?
Must I be a PH to teach my son to hunt?
Must I be a race car driver to teach them to drive? Trucker? Bus driver?
Of course we could push it back to a standard age and handcuff all those children who are not coddled, OCD, ADD, R2d2 or C3Po.
Then we can push back the age to smoke, like we did here in Totalitarian Michigan.
No driving until 26. No Alcohol till 30.
And absolutely no voting until you are a grumpy curmudgeon that allows nothing except the thought of freedom.
If they’re treated like incompetent children till they’re 50, you’ll be dealing with incompetent children until they are 50.
And speaking of credentials, since you allegedly make the decision for your entire family, what is your doctorate in?
Assuming of course, the ridiculous assertion that one must be a child behaviorist to teach them a sport safely.
Must I be a Chef to teach my daughter to cook?
Must I be a PH to teach my son to hunt?
Must I be a race car driver to teach them to drive? Trucker? Bus driver?
chicharrones
needs more ammo
It depends on the kid. Some kids are mature enough and can follow instructions well at a younger age than others.
While I mentioned that my first hands on firearms experience was at age 7, I started on BB guns maybe a year earlier. However, I wasn't cut loose with a BB gun away from adult supervision until maybe age 9 and I wasn't cut loose with a firearm until maybe age 11.
With my own 4 kids, one of them didn't stop his squirrely ways until maybe age 20. And he's never had enough interest to shoot an air gun or firearm, he's the pacifist of the family and would rather shoot things via video games if he "shoots" at anything at all.
I introduced my youngest daughter to guns with a kid sized and kid powered break barrel air rifle around age 8 and that was followed with a youth sized 5-shot bolt gun (with single shot adapter) at age 9. Alas, she (age 21 now) never continued with an interest in firearms, but she still has that .22 LR rifle of which I installed an adult sized stock on it several years ago.
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i have a pink Rascal, and just shot it at the range for the first time last week (shot it in the back yard a few times over the years) and it shoots well. It will keep a single hole at 10 yards easy enough without a scope, but the real fun was shooting a 100 yard steel plate. Not particularly hard but lots of fun, and the kid gets excited about the ringing. It weights 2.5lb. Its a little too big for my 5 year old but will fit an 6-7 year old. It is also comfortable for an adult, though not exactly perfect. The Rascal has the added benefit that its a decent survival rifle for an adult, and its a well made, durable firearm, not just a novelty. I also have a cricket, which is much smaller, designed for kids 4-6 years, and is not nearly as easy to use, but weights almost nothing, and is very safe.
I let my 4 year old have fun with a CZ she mostly shot mud in the air but two years later she still remembers it. I would not to it to a 2 year old, drawing the line when they're old enough to communicate their earplugs and muffs are working correctly. You can keep your hand on the grip with them, its pretty safe one round at a time.My five year old was shooting a 1911.
You know you can put just one bullet in there, right?
They need to learn. Sometimes you have to teach with what you have. If you don’t get them when they’re interested, someone else will...
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I have to admit, the sole reason I looked into a Rascal several years ago was to be a "survival" rifle that my kids would just happen to get to shoot. Lol.
I never did end up getting that gun, though.
Well he loved the Marlin Model 60 and his confidence and shooting went through the roof. On his best tube of the day, he got all 14 shots in a six inch target and half of them inside a two inch group from seven yards. Most importantly, he had fun with it, could load it himself and handle it safely, and wants to go shooting again next weekend.
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