I used to know this: ar15 pistol legality

I don't think that it's barrel length; I think that the OAL of less than 26" (folded or collapsed) is the key to keeping it a pistol.

I'm wondering too. tagged

I remember having the same situation with my Beretta Neos with Carbine Kit. If I put on the 16" barrel, but did not install the rifle stock it was simply a pistol as a Neos frame (w/ serial number) was sold only as a pistol.

So, a receiver that is sold as being a pistol can become a carbine (with proper barrel and proper rifle stock) and go back to being a pistol by removing the rifle stock and reinstalling the pistol grip. Leaving the 16" barrel installed, if one wishes.

An AR using a brace? Makes me think you'd have to carry documentation proving the receiver serial number was sold as a pistol to show to those who don't know your AR is a pistol, but have the authority to give you trouble.

This was dealt with by Thompson Center years ago. https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/thompson/

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If it’s originally a pistol then it remains a pistol, and can be converted as you see fit provided that it never is set up as a SBR. You can go back and forth to your hearts desire, but the defensive side of me says that some CYA photos and documentation of the firearm being in pistol form before being fitted as a rifle could potentially serve a man well.

There’s no limit to barrel length for a pistol.

ETA: a firearm originally assembled as a pistol can always come back to a pistol configuration - even if it has been registered as an SBR and reconfigured. Said receiver can be then reconfigured by the stamp holder as a pistol, rifle, or SBR at will.

taliv said:

If I have an ar15 pistol lower and I put a 16“ or longer upper on it, it’s still a pistol right?

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Yes. Until you add a buttstock.

Or do I have to keep it under 16”?

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You do not

it can be converted to a rifle but can’t go back to pistol again right?

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Incorrect. A pistol may be configured as a rifle, then reconfigured as a pistol so long as it's not in an illegal configuration while doing so

Varminterror is correct- Federal law does not set a maximum barrel length or over all length for handguns

I think that my “keep it under 26”” concept came from SB Tactical.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/keeping-your-ar-15-pistol-build-within-legal-limits/

rbernie said:

I think that my “keep it under 26”” concept came from SB Tactical.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/keeping-your-ar-15-pistol-build-within-legal-limits/

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I will help clarify the federal law for you concerning the magic 26" OAL.

A pistol can be any length and remain concealable. Now if you take a pistol with OAL greater than 26" you can legally put a vertical fore grip on it. The addition of the VFG changes the weapon classification according to the ATF. With the VFG and 26"+ OAL it goes from being a pistol to being classified as a "firearm" or commonly called an "other". In this configuration it can not be concealed due to the 26"+ OAL, if concealed it becomes an AOW. Another example is the Mossberg Shockwave and Remington Tac firearms. They are legal as long as they stay over 26" OAL. As soon as you conceal a Shockwave, you have created an AOW. Open carry if fine with anything classified as a "firearm".

Also if you put a VFG on a pistol that is shorter that 26" OAL it also becomes an AOW. Angled fore grips are legal on pistols shorter than 26" OAL.

As others have stated. If the firearms is originally built as a pistol then it can go from pistol to rifle and back to pistol. You must install a 16"+ barrel before installing a stock and then you must remove the stock first before putting a shorter barrel back on when changing it back to a pistol. Now if the gun was originally built first as a rifle then it must stay a rifle (minus SBR tax stamp).

Hopefully I cleared up things a little bit for you. Either that you you are even more confused than before which happens anytime one tries to make sense of federal gun laws, specially NFA laws.

taliv said:

if that's true, then folders have some value beyond the obvious

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Indeed.

Keltec exploits that with several of their guns e.g. the CMR (rifle) which has a collapsible stock and is 23ish inches long when collapsed. I’m sure their are other examples from other companies, that was just the first that came to mind.

taliv said:

if that's true, then folders have some value beyond the obvious

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An AR pistol with a folding adaptor gets measured with the adaptor folded. So say you want to put a VFG on a pistol that is over 26" OAL. If it has a folding adaptor, then the OAL is measured with the adaptor in the folded position so it will never meet the 26" OAL.

Ed Ames said:

Indeed.

Keltec exploits that with several of their guns e.g. the CMR (rifle) which has a collapsible stock and is 23ish inches long when collapsed. I’m sure their are other examples from other companies, that was just the first that came to mind.

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No they do not. Rifles get measured with the stock fully extended per Federal gun laws.

Here is an example letter from the ATF concerning arm braces and folding adaptors.




On measuring rifle OAL

The overall length of your rifle or shotgun may also classify it as a Short Barrel Rifle or Short Barrel Shotgun. So how is the overall length determined? Once again we turn to ATF’s procedure on measuring overall length. The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore. Seems simple enough right? Two things to bear in mind when determining the overall length of your rifle or shotgun. First, if the rifle has a permanently attached muzzle device, that is part of the overall length. Second, if the rifle or shotgun has a collapsable stock, the overall length is measured with the stock extended.

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https://www.ammoland.com/2016/12/do-you-have-an-illegal-sbr-measure-your-gun/#axzz6OALMiGXH

Bravo, good point.

So let me see if I can paraphrase. Taliv is right in theory but in practice the ATF applies that inconsistently across different configurations, with folders measured folded and collapsing stocks measured extended.

Correct Ed.

None of ever said the NFA laws and federal gun laws in general ever made sense but it is what it is. The only advantage in have a folding adaptor is to make the AR shorter for storage. They will shoot with a folding adaptor folded but only once.

And to muddy the water even more.

If you have a brace such as the SBA3 brace or others that are adjustable, they can get you into trouble with the ATF if they extend to the point of the trigger pull (length from trigger to end of brace) is greater than 13.5" then it makes the brace a stock which now turns your pistol into an illegal SBR.

The LOP is measured in a straight line from the face of the trigger to the rear of the brace. The rear of the brace is taken at its most extended position (if adjustable). “The ATF has advised that a braced pistol with a length of pull in excess of 13.5 inches may constitute a re-design of the brace into a stock

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Ed Ames said:

...the ATF applies that inconsistently across different configurations, with folders measured folded and collapsing stocks measured extended.

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It's not really an inconsistency. The stock is classified as a necessary part of a long arm. Therefore, it can be included in the OAL when extended.

The brace is not a stock. It's an accessory. It's not a necessary part. This is a good thing as it gives shooters another layer of protection against the government deciding to claim braces turn handguns into rifles. Stocks are not an accessory. Accessories are not stocks. Braces, being an accessory, isn't a stock.

Ruling that braces are accessories and therefore cannot be included in the OAL is a win for us.

MistWolf said:

It's not really an inconsistency. The stock is classified as a necessary part of a long arm. Therefore, it can be included in the OAL when extended.

The brace is not a stock. It's an accessory. It's not a necessary part. This is a good thing as it gives shooters another layer of protection against the government deciding to claim braces turn handguns into rifles. Stocks are not an accessory. Accessories are not stocks. Braces, being an accessory, isn't a stock.

Ruling that braces are accessories and therefore cannot be included in the OAL is a win for us.

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Absolutely a win for us.

Just remember that folders are measured folded and that you do not want to exceed 13.5" length of pull with an adjustable brace. And don't put a VFG on any pistol that is under 26" OAL ( measured from end of buffer tube to end of barrel unless the muzzle device is pinned and welded)

MistWolf said:

It's not really an inconsistency. The stock is classified as a necessary part of a long arm. Therefore, it can be included in the OAL when extended.

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Wait, now I’m confused. Bravo says a folding stock rifle OAL is measured folded but a collapsing stock rifle OAL is measured when extended. Now you say that stocks in general are measured when extended.

Which is it?

Folders when attached to a pistol are measured folded. Stocks on a rifle/SBR are always measured fully extended. In order to have a stock on an AR it must either be a rifle or a registered SBR. You can not put a stock on a pistol unless you first register it as a SBR. Yes it is confusing. But we must play the game if we want to keep our ARs legal.

On rifles and SBRs, the stock is a necessary part in order to fire from the shoulder. Braces are considered accessories since they are NOT needed to fire the weapon because they are NOT meant to be shouldered.

The whole deal about measuring folding adaptors folded came from a case in Connecticut where some manufacturers were trying to get around CT state laws. CT doesn't allow AR pistols but evidently allows AR's classified as a "firearm" or "other"

Have I cleared things up or confused you more? Yes the whole NFA is messed up. My AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel is darn near the same length as my 16" carbine with it's stock collapsed. The carbine is fine with a stock since the OAL is over 26" and barrel is at least 16". My pistol must stay a pistol unless I register it as a SBR because the barrel is less than 16" even thought the OAL is over 26"

That did clear it up actually.

I wasn’t thinking in terms of a folded brace. Should have been, in this context, but that’s where I went wrong.

Thank you!

You're welcome.

I hate to see anyone get in trouble since it is so easy to do so. I looked long and hard into all the laws years ago when I built my first AR pistol and I try to keep up on the pertaining laws to stay out of trouble.

chicharrones said:

I remember having the same situation with my Beretta Neos with Carbine Kit. If I put on the 16" barrel, but did not install the rifle stock it was simply a pistol as a Neos frame (w/ serial number) was sold only as a pistol.

So, a receiver that is sold as being a pistol can become a carbine (with proper barrel and proper rifle stock) and go back to being a pistol by removing the rifle stock and reinstalling the pistol grip. Leaving the 16" barrel installed, if one wishes.

An AR using a brace? Makes me think you'd have to carry documentation proving the receiver serial number was sold as a pistol to show to those who don't know your AR is a pistol, but have the authority to give you trouble.

This was dealt with by Thompson Center years ago. https://www.stephenhalbrook.com/thompson/

View attachment 920757

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WOW! The rare blue Unicorn of the Neos Carbine Kit! I'm impressed. The hunt must have been.......wait for it;......

LEGENDARY!!!

chicharrones said:

An AR using a brace? Makes me think you'd have to carry documentation proving the receiver serial number was sold as a pistol to show to those who don't know your AR is a pistol, but have the authority to give you trouble.

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In no circumstance is an owner/shooter required or expected to carry such documentation.

Varminterror said:

In no circumstance is an owner/shooter required or expected to carry such documentation.

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I was thinking out loud of what I'd do.

Back in my offroad motorcycle days I'd use clear box tape to attach a copy of the title to the underside of motorcycle seats for proof of ownership. On one particular outing, a police cruiser followed me down a creek side trail and the officer said he stopped me because of reports of stolen motorcycles nearby. I unbolted the seat and showed him a copy of the title, which satisfied him enough he let me be. Yep, I had my drivers license on me, too.

So, I was thinking a little piece of paper for a firearm that someone in authority may question may work in a similar fashion.

I am just glad our government was wise enough to make all these rules so logical and easy to understand.