Do you agree or Disagree?

Good Ol' Boy said:

It's just my opinion, but theres so many folks (including myself) that "make it work" I feel that it's just a null excuse to say that pocket carry is the only way one can carry because theres no other option.

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You have a valid point. Many probably do choose this because, for example, it's "the easy way out".

And that may be true. Choosing "the easy way out" as a solution is not necessarily the best solution.

However, it's not necessarily the worst solution. Nor is it necessarily a solution arrived at because it's "easy" (to use my example).

I mentioned earlier what my preferred daily carry is, including my preferred carry method, and I will make every effort to carry it in that way.

But sometimes I simply can't. And though I do not have a "pocket carry suitable" handgun, there have been times when I wished I did because a much smaller handgun would have been ideal because it would be so much easier to conceal.

Given the choice between "can't carry at all" and "carry a small 'pea shooter' for the duration", I know what my choice would be.

Sometimes budget is a very real constraint, for example. Not only does it cost a not insignificant amount of money just for another handgun, buying a decent holster is not typically cheap, either. Or a belt appropriate to the attire as well as ability to properly support a holstered pistol.

For me, as another example, it would cost me a pretty penny to buy another nice Italian suit and have it specifically tailored around me and my holstered Colt.

A bigger handgun also presents some physical challenges at times, too. For example when I pull a muscle in my lower back occasionally, it can be quite painful for me to carry my full sized Colt IWB. Not only is it painful, but it exacerbates the problem making the recovery time significantly longer.

I am a fan of people caring the biggest they can reasonably carry on a routine basis. The physics of such matters as mass, caliber, capacity, etc. make sense on this.

But sometimes circumstances conspire against this.

My P32 is my "everything" gun. Normally it's a BUG. It's on me if I'm dressed. If I am "just going to the store," I will still don my primary before I go. The BUG is on me though, even if I'm working outside, when I may be getting under tractor, ATV, etc. I will do yard work wearing my primary, if fully standing, or cutting grass, but at least I'm still armed if otherwise.

RetiredUSNChief said:

You have a valid point. Many probably do choose this because, for example, it's "the easy way out".

And that may be true. Choosing "the easy way out" as a solution is not necessarily the best solution.

However, it's not necessarily the worst solution. Nor is it necessarily a solution arrived at because it's "easy" (to use my example).

.

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Lackadaisical sum that up?

The following is not directed toward RetiredUSNChief....

The little pocket gun selected for a trip to the store, in a "good" area of course, when something bigger could be carried, but that takes more effort.
Its doubtful that little pocket gun would be 1st pick if they thought using it really was a possibility.
Well, of course they don't expect to use it, its for "just in case" .... just in case somebody(s) tries to kill them.
"Just in case" is enough of a concern to merit carrying something (minimal), but not what they would carry if the anticipated threat was greater.

Anticipated threat, in other words predicting the criminal/psychopathic actions of others; the anticipated threat is low (in the "good" place) because the "bad" people are immobile and mostly nocturnal and not likely to leave their designated area. If the "bad" people had even the slightest remote chance of showing up at that store in the "good" area, that would merit carrying something more substantial, but nope that aint gonna happen during this trip, so a little pocket gun will do. .

In before .... QUOTE CDW4ME - Have you never heard of risk assessment? You are WRONG, ect ... /QUOTE ... LOL

Yea, I did a risk assessment. I concluded that if I had to defend (risk) my life, regardless of location, I assess that I'd rather have a Glock 19/23 in hand that a little pocket gun.
(AKA not lackadaisical)

Disclaimer: The preceding only applicable to times when attire is a choice, if limited by work attire thats different and you have my sympathy. I aint limited by work attire.

RetiredUSNChief said:

But not necessarily the point.

Sometimes pocket carry is what you have based on circumstances.

What's the alternative, then? Carry nothing because you can't carry in some other "optimal" mode?

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Exactly! If your situational awareness is decent, then you'll have your hand in your pocket and your gun half drawn ready to go

Terry G said:

"If I'm just going to the store for a gallon of milk I just drop my .22 Deringer, Ruger LCP, or similiar small caliber pistol in my pocket." Good idea? Bad idea? I always thought and taught when you go armed, no matter where, you go armed. That means your EDC.

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Go Big or stay home.

RetiredUSNChief said:

You have a valid point. Many probably do choose this because, for example, it's "the easy way out".

And that may be true. Choosing "the easy way out" as a solution is not necessarily the best solution.

However, it's not necessarily the worst solution. Nor is it necessarily a solution arrived at because it's "easy" (to use my example).

I mentioned earlier what my preferred daily carry is, including my preferred carry method, and I will make every effort to carry it in that way.

But sometimes I simply can't. And though I do not have a "pocket carry suitable" handgun, there have been times when I wished I did because a much smaller handgun would have been ideal because it would be so much easier to conceal.

Given the choice between "can't carry at all" and "carry a small 'pea shooter' for the duration", I know what my choice would be.

Sometimes budget is a very real constraint, for example. Not only does it cost a not insignificant amount of money just for another handgun, buying a decent holster is not typically cheap, either. Or a belt appropriate to the attire as well as ability to properly support a holstered pistol.

For me, as another example, it would cost me a pretty penny to buy another nice Italian suit and have it specifically tailored around me and my holstered Colt.

A bigger handgun also presents some physical challenges at times, too. For example when I pull a muscle in my lower back occasionally, it can be quite painful for me to carry my full sized Colt IWB. Not only is it painful, but it exacerbates the problem making the recovery time significantly longer.

I am a fan of people caring the biggest they can reasonably carry on a routine basis. The physics of such matters as mass, caliber, capacity, etc. make sense on this.

But sometimes circumstances conspire against this.

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I'm not trying to change anyone's mind and I know for sure on this topic no ones changing my mind, these are all our opinions.

I just dont understand stacking the odds against you from the get go, essentially "just because".

I'll never buy someone saying they shoot a LCP as good as a fullsize and I realize theres generally a happy medium between those two, but it certainly isnt a .22 Derringer.

Look, it's a free country do what you want. I dont understand it but there are a lot of things I dont understand.


Its threads like these that make me wish IDPA allowed pocket carry, as if the Miculek video isnt enough.

luzyfuerza said:

If someone has trained with and measured his/her performance with the mini pistol in their pocket, then I say go right ahead!

Each defender sets the standards for what are acceptable draw times from concealment to first shot for them. They set acceptable times and accuracy for failure-to-stop and Bill drills (or whatever drills they prefer) at whatever distances are suitable for them. Acceptable times for malfunction clearing, reloads, etc. for her or him.

For me, I have never been able to meet my standards on these kinds of exercises with mini-guns in a pocket. So I don't carry them, even on the proverbial "milk run".

If someone carries a little gun, but can't say how well they perform with it, then, I say, shame on you! This is America! Get to the range and find out! Get some competent advise and training! You might be surprised how poorly, or how well, it works for you.

But whatever you decide, make those decisions about what and how to carry based on real performance, NOT hopes, dreams, or imagination.

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I bought a Model 36 awhile back (without ever trying one because ranges don't typically rent them) thinking it would be a great carry gun due to the size. Unfortunately, on excitedly visiting the range with it as soon as it arrived, I discovered that besides the fact that it kills my hand I am nowhere near as accurate with it as with at least a 3", so it's been in the safe ever since.

JohnKSa said:

No matter where I go, I go armed. Sometimes it's with my EDC, sometimes circumstances dictate that I must be armed with something else--whether it's a much smaller, more concealable gun, or, perhaps even something other than a firearm.

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"perhaps even something other than a firearm"
Aside from whatever firearm I might be carrying I wear my ARK knife 24/7 except in the shower. No illusions about being able to do more with it than get someone off me, but if they run away and I'm alive, it's all good.

Axis II said:

So, I have a serious question...

I carry only when going to the inner city where there is a chance of serious physical harm such as robbery, car jacking, assault may happen. My question is what in the world are you guys scared of to carry to the mail box, sitting in the recliner watching tv, cutting the grass? If I have that much fear of my neighbors or someone coming to hurt me while cutting the grass then I would seriously move. I used to carry daily but it became an annoyance. I just avoid areas where potential severe bodily harm could come to me and sitting on the riding mower isn't one of them.

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3...2...1... Waiting for Trunk Monkey to chime in with the time he had to use his firearm while fetching his mail...

It depends where you live. I lived in an area of greater L.A. that unfortunately devolved into a very high-crime area with the added attraction of many homeless crazies roaming the streets day and night. I was armed all the time in my house. Outside the house I had to take my life in my hands because they don't give carry permits there. Thankfully I was able to leave two years ago and am very happy about it, haven't stepped foot in Cali since and don't care to.

Good Ol' Boy said:

video of him doing pocket draw drills

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Could you possibly please post a link?

old lady new shooter said:

I bought a Model 36 awhile back (without ever trying one because ranges don't typically rent them) thinking it would be a great carry gun due to the size. Unfortunately, on excitedly visiting the range with it as soon as it arrived, I discovered that besides the fact that it kills my hand I am nowhere near as accurate with it as with at least a 3", so it's been in the safe ever since.

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Like your experience with the model 36, I have REALLY wanted to like my J-frame airweight .38 special (a model 442). It's small, light, and easy to carry, yet it shoots an adequate round. But I just can't shoot it well. Small sights, short sight radius, small grips combined with my big hands, and perkey recoil even with target ammo don't work for me.

This week I've been doing 5x5x5 drills () with various handguns, and tonight I had the J-frame out at my pistol range. Contrasting with the other guns I've had out on this drill (45 ACP and 9mm autoloaders plus a 2" 64-6), it is amazing how much more difficult that little 442 is to shoot quickly and accurately.

One specific thing I noticed tonight: the 5x5x5 drill is typically shot from the low ready, starting with the trigger finger off the trigger. With the J-frame, I had to release my grip and rotate my firing hand just to get my finger into the trigger guard and on the trigger after the beep. Adjusting your grip at the same time you're trying to align sights and get them on target just isn't conducive to speed or accuracy. I also noticed that I had to do the same thing to remove my finger off of the trigger.

This is the kind of stuff shooters don't catch if they only target shoot, slow fire, on a square range.

I think that the 442's days in my safe might be numbered.

luzyfuerza said:

Like your experience with the model 36, I have REALLY wanted to like my J-frame airweight .38 special (a model 442). It's small, light, and easy to carry, yet it shoots an adequate round. But I just can't shoot it well. Small sights, short sight radius, small grips combined with my big hands, and perkey recoil even with target ammo don't work for me.

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Although I am just a fraction over 5' tall, I have pretty big hands, my palms are actually the size of an average guy's although my fingers are not commensurately long. My perception was that the teeny-tiny grip on the Model 36 was the biggest problem.

luzyfuerza said:

I think that the 442's days in my safe might be numbered.

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The Model 36 is kind of collectible, it's from 1970-something with beautiful perfect bluing and very little use, I figure it will likely continue to increase in value the longer I keep it. I bought it from a friend in another state (which is why I didn't have the opportunity to try it out first).

While the thought of a 22 beating having nothing is true, I can not imagine why one would go out without the weapon platform on with you are trained and confident. In short, don't take the easy solution first.

old lady new shooter said:

Could you possibly please post a link?

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The whole video is good but if you want to go straight to the pocket gun drawing skip to 6:50.

Kleanbore said:

"Inexcusable" may not be the best term, but it sure wouldn't make any sense.

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I shoot Pocket guns and J frames on a regular basis and have been for over a decade. I think the OP's "Just throw one in the Pocket is taken out of context". I have no problem at all with EDC as a carry gun and just going to the store or mailbox etc. is more than convenient, mine are viable defense weapons and I can shoot them well. If you cannot, then by all means carry a gun that you can. You need a large duty gun to go to the mailbox or store to pick up a a half gallon of milk, then by all means to it, but be sure and do it.

Kleanbore said:

I would prefer to mitigate the risks that five shots will not suffice or ending up with an empty gun.

Where one is going and why are irrelevant.

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I was quite clear about them as EDC or Every day carry guns. And agree with where you are going is Irrelevant. That is why I mentioned about going to a mailbox or convenient store to use your carry gun no matter what size you own. But I am just taking a guess here that a Smaller gun that you can shoot with competence might also be a little more convenient to do this with. I would prefer to do mitigate the risk with a gun that could carry 30 rds, but that is not going to happen. If you feel you need more rounds then by all means that is fine, and so many guns to choose from. Carry what you feel is right for you, I will carry what I feel is right for me and one you train with on a regular basis.

On another thread discussing .22 ammo, something came to mind that could be relevant in deciding whether a .22 is "better than nothing". It certainly has to be better than nothing, but if the info there is correct it's basically next to nothing. I haven't tested so I don't have a conclusion to offer, but maybe one of you does.
CCI stingers listed @ 1600+ fps from a 24" barrel measure just over 1200fps from a Ruger mk2 or 3 or some variation. If in fact they lose that much velocity, then regular .22 high velocity measured from a rifle barrel would equate to velocity and energy of a .22 short out of a handgun barrel? If true, that would make it difficult to ever feel like a .22 for SD would be much more than a noise maker.

old lady new shooter said:

I bought a Model 36 awhile back (without ever trying one because ranges don't typically rent them) thinking it would be a great carry gun due to the size. Unfortunately, on excitedly visiting the range with it as soon as it arrived, I discovered that besides the fact that it kills my hand I am nowhere near as accurate with it as with at least a 3", so it's been in the safe ever since.

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I once had the use of a S&W 37, which is the light weight version of the 36. It wound up in my possession chiefly because the original owner, upon trying it for the first time, concluded that it “Couldn’t hit the side of a barn, from the inside.”

To cut a long story short, it was an amazingly accurate little gun if you were the right sort of bloody-minded. The sights were perfectly usable, the trigger was very good, it was completely capable of hitting man-sized targets at 50+ yards if you wanted. Bloody-minded in this case meaning you needed to be OK with getting blood on the gun as it cut up your hand. I was (at the time), but for the fellow who originally bought the gun, it was basically useless.

As for .22LR, I don’t know of any .22LR handguns (arguably apart from the NAA mini revolvers, and I could take either side of that argument) that are actually much smaller than a .380, so it’s kinda a red herring. Anyone who chooses .22lr is doing so for some other reason other than easy concealment.

Good Ol' Boy said:

The whole video is good but if you want to go straight to the pocket gun drawing skip to 6:50.

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Thanks.

Kleanbore said:

That's a good point.

There are other examples of that phenomenon. I started out with a Smith and Wesson 642, because I though it compact and concealable.

I was surprised later on when I put a Ruger SR-9c down next to it. The envelope was about the same.

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Say what? I have the SR9C and the 642 and because of the shape of the two, find a 642 much easier to put into a pocket if I desired. My gosh the SR9C is a whopping 9oz heavier. (and that does not include the extra ammo) Lol, there is no way I would put a SR9C in my pocket. Especially in Summer. My pants would come down.And not about to attempt to put a SR9C in my light weight shorts with no belt. I get a chuckle at the mere thought.
And your comment of where one is going is irrelevant is something I cannot agree with. I live in a nice neighborhood and if I am working outside and carry a small 380 which is light for working and i want to go down 1 mile to the 7/11 for a six pack of beer, I just do it. I do not run into the house to strap on a duty gun
If I was going to go out for a six pack and for some insane reason decide to go down to the main corner in the hood at midnight, then yes, I would consider a different gun.
If it ever gets to the Point that I cannot even go to the local store that has never had a shooting in the decades it has been opened in broad daylight and armed with a 380. or snub nose revolver than I guess I am just out of luck. Too bad. At this point, I guess I would just never leave the house again and only have supplies delivered.
You feel like you need a bigger bore gun with more ammo for everthing in your life then that is great. I have no problem with it. Just not for me.
Heck, I might just carry my P32 and really do not care what some folks on the internet have to say.