Unfortunate Armed Burglary

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el Godfather

el Godfather

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Hi
Last month something terrible happened that has left me thinking. I live n a very peaceful neighborhood that is also considered a prime area of the city. My relative, the subject in question, also lives here. In fact about six streets down. Although this is not his primary residence anymore, he is here often.

He is someone who is an avid gun collector. Has many weapons ranging from an ordinary pistol to James Purdey shotgun pairs. He carries a weapon most of the time and usually even at his house you will find a gun around him. It was about 9:30-10:00 pm when he was sitting with his family and having an after dinner dessert and watching TV. Suddenly, four men entered his house with handguns and held the entire family on the gun point. They took whatever they could and left. Luckily, there wasn't much as its not his primary residence. Yes, among things they took they his MAK and AK Clone. MAK was in his bedroom and AK in one of the closets. He had no other weapons in the house that I know of at the time.

It was not what they took bothered him. It was the entire episode that left him feeling violated and traumatized. He was so upset that for days he wanted to go after these *%&% himself, but the matter was handed over to police; and family, friends and lawyers calmed him down. I can totally understand how he felt and how engaged he was. I was as well.

Since then I have started keeping a gun very handy and easily accessible, but part of me says that sometimes luck is just not on your side. As my relative was the last person I would think to be held on the gun point AND where the robbers would get away in one piece. BUT it happened and when something like that happens to someone that close to you, you will feel like you are just as vulnerable- and as if it has happened to you.

I have placed guns around the house in various parts. Gave my wife a bit of training. My daughter wants nothing to do with it, but my son is actively involved in helping me etc.

The reason I am sharing this is to see what sort of protocols some of you have that were effective in a 'situation.' I would welcome your insights on home defense and tactics.

Thanks
 
How did they enter his house? That's the first starting point.
When you say you gave them a bit of training, what does that mean?

It's a little complicated like that.

Let the OP explain before we start the usual commentary, please.
 
GEM said:
How did they enter his house? That's the first starting point.
When you say you gave them a bit of training, what does that mean?

It's a little complicated like that.

Let the OP explain before we start the usual commentary, please.
Click to expand...

Front door. Main gate of the house was locked but the burglars jumped the wall.

My training is not complicated. Perhaps does not even qualify to be called training. Rather how to move to back of the house upon any noise and preferably to master bed's bath where there are a couple of guns with magazines. Call police. Strat shooting to make noise to shock the intruder hoping he may flee. Once Covid-19 is over we are planning on installing a few cameras as well.


PLUS trained them to shoot and handle weapons.
 
I agree with GEM, and now that we know they came in the front door, I think the first step is to always keep your house locked up, even when you are home. Mine is always locked. I do not carry at home, and do not plan to. But a locked door may give me just enough time to get to a gun. I stash three around the house that are always loaded. Actually, now that I think about it, I leave my hiking guns loaded too, so it's actually 5.

Professional training is a good idea, and I'm do not really think "Start shooting and hope they will flee" is a great tactic. Seems you may be wasting ammo you need.

Then we get into all the hardening of the target talk. I'll leave that to others.
 
They broke the door down? Did the fellow have an alarm system that would trigger if such occurred? Were the frames of the door reinforced to make it difficult.

Four guys with AKs and you with your handgun, that's a tough one.

One might rethink starting shooting to make noise. A good loud alarm system might be better than launching rounds into the unknown. Another strategy is to yell loudly that we are armed and the police has been called.

If you look at the Breoona Taylor incident, you might be on the end of a mistaken address or ill conceived warrant by the law. Oops, not the time to shoot.
 
Hartkopf said:
All doors should be locked and reinforce with long deck screws into studs.

Make the bad guys take two or ten tries to get the door down. This gives the occupants extra time to take action.
Click to expand...

This is a logical start. I know your on the right track but don’t use “deck screws” Use structural “construction” screws. Similar to many of the offerings from the Simpson Strong Tie company. They have higher shear and tensile strength. They should be at least 3 but preferably 4 inches long to go through the door casement and get into the doubled up 2x material that composes most home door frames.
 
GEM said:
They broke the door down? Did the fellow have an alarm system that would trigger if such occurred? Were the frames of the door reinforced to make it difficult.

Four guys with AKs and you with your handgun, that's a tough one.

One might rethink starting shooting to make noise. A good loud alarm system might be better than launching rounds into the unknown. Another strategy is to yell loudly that we are armed and the police has been called.

If you look at the Breoona Taylor incident, you might be on the end of a mistaken address or ill conceived warrant by the law. Oops, not the time to shoot.
Click to expand...
Four guys with handguns. The AKs were what were taken.

I agree about discharging a firearm randomly. It's generally not advisable to shoot holes in your house simply to scare someone. Besides, if you don't scare them off you may need the rounds you just redecorated with.
 
The first step in securing my home from home invaders started years ago when I was robbed at gunpoint in my photo studio. It was a such a loud wake-up call that it has never left my mind in the 30 years since it happened. Now that I am 78 and a bit more vulnerable than I was a few decades ago I maintain a rigorous home defense plan. My kids have Theron own families and I am a widower since summer of 2016. I stay in my house because I own it; it is mine, and the thought of moving just does not excite me a bit.

There are only two doors to my house: the front door and the door to the deck. Every window is pinned to the frame so it cannot be opened. I have central AC and do not depend on breezes to be cool. I have a loft space that is on the second floor. I can open those windows. They are 20 feet above the ground. The front or is always locked, and it is alarmed. Break in through it and I will know as soon as it is tried. The deck door slides and has a bar to prevent it sliding. It is a tempered glass door so it will make a lot of noise if someone tries to break it.

I carry my pistol all day in the house, and at night there is a pistol on the night table next to the bed. If someone invades my home day or night they will be shot. In PA we have a Castle Doctrine which fundamentally permits a home owner to shoot any intruder without prosecution or civil liability. If a person breaks into my house they are an intruder who will be shot. I would not ask a home invader questions or warn. A perp who invades will get broken.

Since my wife died I moved out of the master bedroom on the first floor and now sleep on the second floor because it offers me the best self defense advantage.

If you look at the gallery of photos at this link, you will see my view of the doors from the loft area where I sleep. If a perp gets into the house he faces being shot from my vantage points. If he gets to the stairs he has to get up them. If he gets up them he will pass the half wall that you see as I look at it from my bedroom.

The only way to be a bit more secure would be to have a couple hand grenades.


View of front door:

FF6-AAB65-4-B5-A-4978-A780-085-FA3-C8-EFBA.jpg



View of deck door:
D92-A264-A-5878-4-B37-9639-BF2-B1-BCF8873.jpg




View of stairs:

98-F551-D9-878-C-4-A73-A262-6438-C266-B25-D.jpg


View of half wall at top of stairs which as to be passes to get to me:
13-EE14-DB-2-C8-C-4-CA2-B92-E-C56-C0-CC43-A8-C.jpg
 
Hartkopf said:
All doors should be locked and reinforce with long deck screws into studs.

Make the bad guys take two or ten tries to get the door down. This gives the occupants extra time to take action.
Click to expand...
I'd start first with a steel security door before they get to the main front door - they make very attractive ones these days

You can also add one of these:
master-lock-door-reinforcement-265dccsen-64_1000.jpg


to slow them down

Something like this:
51UyMRmISYL._AC_SL1000_.jpg


Except MUCH thicker and heavier with the stirrups bolted into the wall. I remember that from a bar I once worked in in college; the bar was 3/8" thick steel as were the stirrups; MAYBE a truck with a chain MIGHT be able to pull the door open.......maybe

BUT no matter what, a pair of very protective dogs will either deter/prevent or at least give him enough notice to grab his guns
 
460Shooter said:
I agree with GEM, and now that we know they came in the front door, I think the first step is to always keep your house locked up, even when you are home. Mine is always locked. I do not carry at home, and do not plan to. But a locked door may give me just enough time to get to a gun. I stash three around the house that are always loaded. Actually, now that I think about it, I leave my hiking guns loaded too, so it's actually 5.

Professional training is a good idea, and I'm do not really think "Start shooting and hope they will flee" is a great tactic. Seems you may be wasting ammo you need.

Then we get into all the hardening of the target talk. I'll leave that to others.
Click to expand...
Yes always keep your doors locked and windows shut(if you can). Always have peepholes for doors.
 
If I am dressed, I am armed unless I am in a legally defined "Gun Free Zone". I made this decision because it is not necessary to safely store the firearm since I am always in control of it. At 80 years old and no small kids it makes life much easier.

NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
 
earlthegoat2 said:
This is a logical start. I know your on the right track but don’t use “deck screws” Use structural “construction” screws. Similar to many of the offerings from the Simpson Strong Tie company. They have higher shear and tensile strength. They should be at least 3 but preferably 4 inches long to go through the door casement and get into the doubled up 2x material that composes most home door frames.
Click to expand...

George P said:
I'd start first with a steel security door before they get to the main front door
Click to expand...

For the average home owner who usually does very little to nothing to secure his house, running long deck screws into the studs is a good first step. I agree with both of you, more is better but most people won’t even take the easy steps until after they are victims of a crime. Anybody reading this can have long hinge screws installed within 2 or 3 hours and that includes the trip to the hardware store.
 
Cameras are at a price point now that makes them easily affordable. I bought several wifi based cameras that are plug and play for $49.99 each. Several different styles available from the company I use. There's no complicated install. If you have an outlet you just plug it in and start building your personal wireless camera network. One camera or 10...whatever you decide you need.

They have the following features...High def/Low Def settings...motion detector...remote up/down/right left/zoom...all with a phone app. Infra red night vision. App is on my phone and sends alerts when anything moves in the camera zone. Movement is recorded for 10 or so seconds on phone You also have option to have 24/7 recording via a cloud subscription...I don't use that. Several of the cameras have a two way speaker. I can sit at work, turn a camera towards the kitchen and turn on the two way speaker and tell my wife I'll be 20 minutes late and is there anything she wants me to pick up on the way home. Basically same thing as Facetime...except the other end doesn't have to pick up the phone or accept the call.

XT6lSJz.jpg
 
I myself take pains to look poor and advertise 'nothing here, move along' I also have hidden cams inside and outside as well as several large and aggressive dogs. My dogs are always inside unless I'm walking them and they alert if anyone is outside within about 50 yards. When they alert I look at the cams. Everyone in the neighborhood knows about the dogs. When outside they are always on-leash and they do bite.

No one comes anywhere near. No one looks twice at anything on my porch. No porch thieves because I have stacks of cases of dog food all around (about half from Amazon) so that even Amazon boxes left on the porch don't look out of place.

The boxes are both outside the doorway and inside and serve as an effective zig-zag barrier against anyone directly storming the front door. The other doors are also treated in a similar manner with equipment, etc.

Why don't they steal the dog food you might ask ? It's all canned and each box is 60 - 80 lbs.
 
Last edited:
First off, regarding doors, folks tend to over simplify security. Having an understanding of construction can bring things into focus.

Your standard single exterior door has hinges (generally 3) on one side and a lock set on the other. The lock set usually consists of a knob, striker and hopefully a deadbolt. On the jam side you have strike plates.

You can put 4" long screws in every hinge and strike plate and it's still relatively easy to kick in a door. Is it better than the standard provided screws? Absolutely. But its certainly not something to rely on.

Keep in mind the lock set side of the door is the real weak spot of any door. Strike plates only have two screws. Two screws no matter how long, even with a dead bolt, are pretty easily breached.

To add to the general entry door discussion, a lot of folks dont realize how many houses have sliding glass doors, French doors and 9 or 15 lite doors. All of these are terrible in terms of security.

Exterior security is just as important as entry points. Something to let you know something is going on before anything even reaches the door. Motion lights/sensors and cameras are what shine here.

As for being armed in the house I'm of the mindset that a gun on your person is going to be more of an asset than guns "around the house".


YMMV...
 
I agree with what's being said here about reinforced doors. It seems, however, that modern design tends to frustrate such efforts. Driving around my (fairly upscale) neighborhood, practically all the houses have glass sidelights on one or both sides of the front doors, and at least half of them have glass panels in the doors themselves. Hardly anyone seems to give any thought to security. On top of that, they consistently vote for rabid antigunners at all levels of government. Yet strangely there are practically no reports of break-ins. (The number of police here, per capita, is quite high. We have our own well-rated town police force.)
 
Several years ago, all of the windows in my house were replaced with double-pane gas-filled vinyl double-hungs. They all have the little pop-out clips that keep the windows from being opened more than 3" without a lot of noise. The storm door on the front door has "hook & eye" closures about 2 ft. from both top & bottom, in addition to the regular latch. The inner door has a deadbolt as well as the regular lock and both strike plates have long screws into the jambs and framework. The front door is very rarely used.
The kitchen door, which gets the most use, also has long screws, and the 2 locks on it. It also has 3 single-pane windows in it that would have let someone break the glass and undo the deadbolt. That was solved by putting a 1/8" piece of polycarbonate on the inside and screwing it to the wooden door, making it difficult to get to the deadbolt.
The sliding glass door came with a "track lock" that engages when the door is fully closed OR open about 3". I added a hinged piece of 1" x 2" to the track that I can lift out to fully open the door, leave the hinged piece folded to open the door the 3" allowed, or fully extended to prevent the door from being opened at all.
There is one unusual aspect of this house - access to the attic is through an opening in the roof of the carport near the kitchen door. While the two hasps and padlocks would only slow them down, again it would make some noise. And, to get to it, they would have to pass through two sets of MD lights, one at each end of the carport.
 
460Shooter said:
I agree with GEM, and now that we know they came in the front door, I think the first step is to always keep your house locked up, even when you are home. Mine is always locked. I do not carry at home, and do not plan to. But a locked door may give me just enough time to get to a gun. I stash three around the house that are always loaded. Actually, now that I think about it, I leave my hiking guns loaded too, so it's actually 5.

Professional training is a good idea, and I'm do not really think "Start shooting and hope they will flee" is a great tactic. Seems you may be wasting ammo you need.

Then we get into all the hardening of the target talk. I'll leave that to others.
Click to expand...

Ideally speaking you are right. Front door shall always be locked up. Sometimes, however, there is a lapse because the houses where I live have boundary wall with main gates. This makes the premises inside secure and that when the lapses happen.

GEM said:
They broke the door down? Did the fellow have an alarm system that would trigger if such occurred? Were the frames of the door reinforced to make it difficult.

Four guys with AKs and you with your handgun, that's a tough one.

One might rethink starting shooting to make noise. A good loud alarm system might be better than launching rounds into the unknown. Another strategy is to yell loudly that we are armed and the police has been called.

If you look at the Breoona Taylor incident, you might be on the end of a mistaken address or ill conceived warrant by the law. Oops, not the time to shoot.
Click to expand...

Shooting a rounds often works contrary to what many think. (the spare bullets are a plenty with magazines filled specifically keeping this situation in mind) The idea is that the intruders are not paid assassins there to kill you. If they are then its a whole different ball game. They are cowards and only there to steal. Once they are fired upon or there is shock an awe sort of fire upon their vicinity- most of them will run. Very small percentage will hold ground and return fire while the entire neighbourhood is awake and police is on its way.

1942bull said:
The first step in securing my home from home invaders started years ago when I was robbed at gunpoint in my photo studio. It was a such a loud wake-up call that it has never left my mind in the 30 years since it happened. Now that I am 78 and a bit more vulnerable than I was a few decades ago I maintain a rigorous home defense plan. My kids have Theron own families and I am a widower since summer of 2016. I stay in my house because I own it; it is mine, and the thought of moving just does not excite me a bit.

There are only two doors to my house: the front door and the door to the deck. Every window is pinned to the frame so it cannot be opened. I have central AC and do not depend on breezes to be cool. I have a loft space that is on the second floor. I can open those windows. They are 20 feet above the ground. The front or is always locked, and it is alarmed. Break in through it and I will know as soon as it is tried. The deck door slides and has a bar to prevent it sliding. It is a tempered glass door so it will make a lot of noise if someone tries to break it.

I carry my pistol all day in the house, and at night there is a pistol on the night table next to the bed. If someone invades my home day or night they will be shot. In PA we have a Castle Doctrine which fundamentally permits a home owner to shoot any intruder without prosecution or civil liability. If a person breaks into my house they are an intruder who will be shot. I would not ask a home invader questions or warn. A perp who invades will get broken.

Since my wife died I moved out of the master bedroom on the first floor and now sleep on the second floor because it offers me the best self defense advantage.

If you look at the gallery of photos at this link, you will see my view of the doors from the loft area where I sleep. If a perp gets into the house he faces being shot from my vantage points. If he gets to the stairs he has to get up them. If he gets up them he will pass the half wall that you see as I look at it from my bedroom.

The only way to be a bit more secure would be to have a couple hand grenades.


View of front door:

View attachment 923608


View of deck door:
View attachment 923609



View of stairs:

View attachment 923610

View of half wall at top of stairs which as to be passes to get to me:
View attachment 923611
Click to expand...

Very detailed. I will further study your setup in detail. IT appears that you have established excellent vantage points.

Frulk said:
Cameras are at a price point now that makes them easily affordable. I bought several wifi based cameras that are plug and play for $49.99 each. Several different styles available from the company I use. There's no complicated install. If you have an outlet you just plug it in and start building your personal wireless camera network. One camera or 10...whatever you decide you need.

They have the following features...High def/Low Def settings...motion detector...remote up/down/right left/zoom...all with a phone app. Infra red night vision. App is on my phone and sends alerts when anything moves in the camera zone. Movement is recorded for 10 or so seconds on phone You also have option to have 24/7 recording via a cloud subscription...I don't use that. Several of the cameras have a two way speaker. I can sit at work, turn a camera towards the kitchen and turn on the two way speaker and tell my wife I'll be 20 minutes late and is there anything she wants me to pick up on the way home. Basically same thing as Facetime...except the other end doesn't have to pick up the phone or accept the call.

View attachment 923642
Click to expand...

Camera and their advertisement is next logical step.
 
el Godfather said:
Hi
Last month something terrible happened that has left me thinking. I live n a very peaceful neighborhood that is also considered a prime area of the city. My relative, the subject in question, also lives here. In fact about six streets down. Although this is not his primary residence anymore, he is here often.

He is someone who is an avid gun collector. Has many weapons ranging from an ordinary pistol to James Purdey shotgun pairs. He carries a weapon most of the time and usually even at his house you will find a gun around him. It was about 9:30-10:00 pm when he was sitting with his family and having an after dinner dessert and watching TV. Suddenly, four men entered his house with handguns and held the entire family on the gun point. They took whatever they could and left. Luckily, there wasn't much as its not his primary residence. Yes, among things they took they his MAK and AK Clone. MAK was in his bedroom and AK in one of the closets. He had no other weapons in the house that I know of at the time.

It was not what they took bothered him. It was the entire episode that left him feeling violated and traumatized. He was so upset that for days he wanted to go after these *%&% himself, but the matter was handed over to police; and family, friends and lawyers calmed him down. I can totally understand how he felt and how engaged he was. I was as well.

Since then I have started keeping a gun very handy and easily accessible, but part of me says that sometimes luck is just not on your side. As my relative was the last person I would think to be held on the gun point AND where the robbers would get away in one piece. BUT it happened and when something like that happens to someone that close to you, you will feel like you are just as vulnerable- and as if it has happened to you.

I have placed guns around the house in various parts. Gave my wife a bit of training. My daughter wants nothing to do with it, but my son is actively involved in helping me etc.

The reason I am sharing this is to see what sort of protocols some of you have that were effective in a 'situation.' I would welcome your insights on home defense and tactics.

Thanks
Click to expand...
I have several similar handguns strategically but discreetly stationed throughout my home, including one in an outbuilding. Carrying one on my body at all times isn't practical, but I want to have access to one at all times, and no matter what part of the house I may be in. The last thing I want is for a threat to be between me and my only available gun.
 
FL-NC said:
I have several similar handguns strategically but discreetly stationed throughout my home, including one in an outbuilding. Carrying one on my body at all times isn't practical, but I want to have access to one at all times, and no matter what part of the house I may be in. The last thing I want is for a threat to be between me and my only available gun.
Click to expand...
Thats great but here are couple of questions for you: 1) do you live alone or have kids or other people in the as well? 2) the pistols you have stashed are they loaded chamber or empty?
 
el Godfather said:
Front door. Main gate of the house was locked but the burglars jumped the wall.
Click to expand...

Wall = “Privacy Fence.” Privacy for the burglars, to do their deeds, without anyone seeing.

The victims were very lucky that the armed robbers did not decide to engage in extracurricular entertainment.

Even so, yes, the feeling of being violated is still there.

Harden the target.
 
1. Seems the guy was specifically targeted. Who knew that he had guns and the details of when he would be home, etc./

2. The house clearly had inadequate preparation for security.

3. We have the suggestion to fire warning shots in a neighborhood. Not good.

4. We seem not to have specific training for an intensive event. Gun handling is nice but not sufficient. Yes, many folks without training have won an incident but if you say 'train' - make it real

5. Having a gun on you if you can. Try this experiment. Have your guns scattered in many locations. Don't use real guns or truly be sure they are unloaded (still a risk). Sit in a common place, have two folks crash (simulated) the entrance, front or back. Have them go for you. Can you get to the gun that is stashed?

That's my takeaway from this.
 
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