Has anyone EVER used more than 5 or 6 shots carrying a revolver?

JohnKSa said:

Of course, people (regardless of whether they carry revolvers or semi-autos) don't carry ammo boxes to hold their reloads if they care anything about speed, nor do they bother to clean up their brass in the middle of shooting. They either carry speedloaders (or some variation of speedloaders like moonclips or speed strips) or spare magazines and let the magazines/clips/loaders and brass stay where they fall until after the action is over.

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We were both shooting factory ammo straight out of boxes and without any accessories such as Uplulas, loading trays, or speed loaders, and I never said anything about interim clean-ups. Also, we weren’t in a race to dump as as much lead down range as possible.

My apologies if I was unclear, but when I said ‘faster/easier,’ I actually mean less overall work. I just thought it was an interesting dichotomy - while a semi can certainly throw more lead faster in a SD situation, at a range (where most, if not all, shots are fired), a revolver is, overall, less work and that’s one of the things I really like about them. Guess this thread is about how badly handicapped revolvers are in the real world.

We need a pool. Not sure how to do that here. For those not thinking of their wartime days or their time as a police officer how many have:
Ever Cleared Leather during an actual or perceived human threat (Not the Beaver or an Angry Bear)
How many have actually pulled the trigger on a human threat
How many have had to shoot more than once?
How ,any have had to shoot more than the full complement in the particular gun they were using

For me I have had a concealed carry permit in New York State and New York City since 1971, well before Rudy cleaned up things in New York City. I used to carry whenever out of the house, including at work and my employer knew it. THANKFULLY I never had to clear leather or shoot. A few times I did have to turn and go the other way.

I had a big picture of a Model 36 Smith in my store when I owned a gun shop. It said "It is better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it". Though I get the truth to this, today, where I live I feel more safe without a gun on than walking around with one that one might see and turn out to be a jumpy off duty or undercover officer.

Bob

Never used my revolver in a self defense situation. I always carry a reload no matter what I am carrying.

I have reloaded my revolver many times in the woods. Shoot two or three shots to kill some varmint/nuisance animal. Eject the partial cylinder, stashing the unspent rounds in a pocket, grab the speed-loader or moonclip off the belt for a quick reload and re-holster and continue whatever task I was doing before the interruption. I have shot enough USPSA/IDPA competition with a revolver the reload sort of happens nearly automatically as soon as I start moving again.

I only ever wished for more round once; I was involved in a running gunfight late one night with a marauding possum in my chicken yard. He absorbed 5 (FIVE!!!) 158 grain .357 Mag HP's at a distance from 10 to six feet and kept coming! He finally expired as I was fumbling in my pocket for more ammo with my Mag-Lite jammed under one arm. In my after-action analysis it appeared that the big slugs just nipped right through him without any expansion. Now I use just use a 16 gauge; only takes one shot with it.

Alright, I know I know. Really not germane to the question. In all honesty I've never had to pull on anybody, much less use my gun in defense of my life. I do carry extra rounds with me when I carry, in the form of a spare magazine, a speed-strip, or just loose in my pocket if gandering about the farm. Better to have them and not need them...etc. Heck, most of the time I never even fire the darn thing, let alone reload it. If I do shoot it, it's usually at a snake or other varmint and that's a 2-3 shot proposition, max. Still, there's a little peace of mind in knowing I've got the extra rounds if I need them.

Mac

MacAR said:

I only ever wished for more round once; I was involved in a running gunfight late one night with a marauding possum in my chicken yard. He absorbed 5 (FIVE!!!) 158 grain .357 Mag HP's at a distance from 10 to six feet and kept coming! He finally expired as I was fumbling in my pocket for more ammo with my Mag-Lite jammed under one arm. In my after-action analysis it appeared that the big slugs just nipped right through him without any expansion. Now I use just use a 16 gauge; only takes one shot with it.

Alright, I know I know. Really not germane to the question. In all honesty I've never had to pull on anybody, much less use my gun in defense of my life. I do carry extra rounds with me when I carry, in the form of a spare magazine, a speed-strip, or just loose in my pocket if gandering about the farm. Better to have them and not need them...etc. Heck, most of the time I never even fire the darn thing, let alone reload it. If I do shoot it, it's usually at a snake or other varmint and that's a 2-3 shot proposition, max. Still, there's a little peace of mind in knowing I've got the extra rounds if I need them.

Mac

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my opinion is that possums are too dumb to know they are dead....

I have seen this question posed on several forums. The most common reply depends on where you live - the level of threat. Since all the increase in mob/gang activity, many feel that 5 rounds are no longer enough. When my city had their riots, I bumped up the round count, and loaded up the shotguns.

I would not go outside my house without being able to reload. I do not own a revolver. Both my 9mm and 380 have a 7 round magazine capacity. Anytime I leave the house I am at 7+1 in the gun and two extra magazines for 22 rounds in all. I understand that it is extremely unlikely that I would need more than the 8 rounds in my my pistol, but I can envision the scenario in which it might happen. Suppose you are confronted by a superior force like two bad guys with guns who are intent upon shooting you. You have a choice of shooting it out or retreating. I am going to retreat because I know that shooting it out with more thaN one opponent is tantamount to asking to get shot. The best course of action is to exfiltrate. The best way to do that is lay down your own cover fire, that is a volley of bullets going in the general direction of the assailants to keep them at bay and distracted so they are unlikely to hit you. So with my 22 rounds I can do that or at least get to cover.

It is important to realize that you will not likely be able to be on the offensive in a defensive situation. You are reacting, and I know from Nam that a hailstorm of bullets is very distracting. It is a good way to keep from being shot.

Carry what ever you like. Thats what I do and I don't need to convince any one else to do the same to boost my confidence in my own decisions. I don't care what ya'll carry or even if you carry.

Can ANYONE imagine John Wesley Hardin EVER worried over W.B. Hickock thought of what he was carrying?

If you think you need to talk everyone else in to doing what ever you are doing, you seriously need to rethink your own plan.

Most of my carry revolvers that I carry are 5 shot ..
I only have three revolvers that are 6 shot .

It's not just revolvers. I am not aware of an incident where a civilian ever reloaded a handgun during the incident and continued to fire -- any kind of handgun. I can't assert that it never happened, but I would posit that the most recent handgun incidents (last 20 years), are the most relevant to predicting what is most likely for the near future. Those most recent incidents have a much higher probability of being captured on video or otherwise well-documented, compared to 19th or early 20th century incidents. We have a lot of incidents captured on video. I have not seen any where a civilian reloaded. I also note that John Correia, who has made a specialty of analyzing such video, has declared that he has never seen a civilian reload on any of the video he's ever seen.

We should avoid the false assumption that all incidents can be resolved with the minimum number of available cartridges. Some incidents were not resolved in favor of the person who did not reload. Other incidents were resolved in their favor but with more than 1, 2, 5, 6 or whatever number of rounds someone else wants to carry.

We should also avoid the assumption that reloads are too difficult or impractical to perform. In a lot of incidents, people were unprepared to perform a reload. In other incidents, it never became necessary.

We should not presume that a demand for a lot of ammunition in a gunfight is the only cause for reloading. Magazines can be dropped accidentally and they can fail. This can happen even outside the context of a lethal-force encounter. Having a spare is common sense. Clint Smith tells a story about a time he got out of a car and the baseplate on his 1911 caught on the steering wheel and ripped off, dumping the contents. Just carry a spare if you want to stay prepared to fight.

If you want to carry a 5 shot revolver and reload it from a strip, that's your choice. But don't assume or promote the false notion (not in the OP but in post #3) that revolver reloads take a long time. I reload my 7 shot revolvers faster than most people can reload a pistol magazine and my skills are not special. There are a lot of ordinary dudes that can learn to reload very quickly with speedloaders or moonclips with some practice. If they are practicing, they're probably practicing reloading twice as often as the guy with the autoloader. Contrast that to all the people out there that don't even practice reloads with their pistol, nevermind all the people that don't even practice.

labnoti said:

It's not just revolvers. I am not aware of an incident where a civilian ever reloaded a handgun during the incident and continued to fire -- any kind of handgun. I can't assert that it never happened, but I would posit that the most recent handgun incidents (last 20 years), are the most relevant to predicting what is most likely for the near future. Those most recent incidents have a much higher probability of being captured on video or otherwise well-documented, compared to 19th or early 20th century incidents. We have a lot of incidents captured on video. I have not seen any where a civilian reloaded. I also note that John Correia, who has made a specialty of analyzing such video, has declared that he has never seen a civilian reload on any of the video he's ever seen.

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When this is discussed I start to think about some of the things that have happened outside the CONUS. Like Africa and South America.

Get to a place where it's truly lawless and I'm sure that civilians have had to reload...or wished they had a reload before they died.

Thankfully we're not yet to a place where large areas of the US are lawless. I think back to Reginald Denny, you never know when evil will rear it's head. Of course if you KNEW it was coming you would be carrying much more than a five shot revolver.

It falls under the heading of being prepared. The chances of one of us ever having to use our carry gun to defend ourselves or family is extremely low. However, as history has shown, that can change in an instant. I normally carry a LW Commander in 45 ACP with proven eight round mags. I carry two spare mags. Two is one and all that. 28 rounds of 45 ACP at least should allow me to get out of a situation or to my vehicle. I've started carrying heavier firepower in the vehicle.

Here's another thing to think about. I train to shoot two to center of mass, this is a minimum, we all know you shoot till the threat is stopped. A five round revolver doesn't leave a lot of leeway if you're forced to deal with two hostiles, if there are more than two you're screwed. Of course this is my opinion.

Now for those that are practicing their reloads, here's some important tips from Jerry:



These aren't how to do it fast -- there's lots of other tutorials on that -- but this video explains how to do it without screwing up the cylinder notches or bending the crane.


Here is Chris explaining the different reload techniques. I believe Jerry's technique is most similar to the "FBI reload."





The "Stress Fire Reload" is credited to Massad Ayoob who explains it in this video along with why he teaches it this way:



FWIW, Scotty Reitz and Clint Smith teach techniques most similar to Chris's demonstration of what he calls the Support Hand Reload. Clint Smith would de--emphasize speed with his often repeated statements, "I've never seen a stopwatch in a gunfight. I've never talked to anybody who saw a stopwatch in a gunfight." "Don't shoot fast. Shoot good." (which he attributes to latter to Jeff Cooper). Scotty likes to spin and slam the cylinder they way Jerry says not to because it's macho and he's probably not trying to make the revolver last for 200,000 rounds.

Grant Cunningham de-emphasizes the value of reloads for personal protection because he correctly recognizes you're more likely to be struck by lightning, much more. His reasoning is based on Claude Werner's principle of training for the "most likely" rather than using limited training time and resources to focus on the most improbable. That isn't to say that either of these guys devalue proper reload technique, but they want students to perceive reloading skills in an accurate context.

You guys always turn to the dark side (and not just in this thread). When someone asks about reloading (not in competition) I am thinking about a hunting event where the critters are so plentiful that you have to reload. Those are always fond memories where you have bagged several critters and are making a reload to take a few more. The faster and more furious the reload and more immediate the need, the better the story sounds later around the camp fire with friends and a beer.

Several years ago Illinois had the "handgun only late antlerless deer season ". #1 son was about 8, so 20yrs ago...
We had found a well used deer trail that crossed a large log, and decided to hunt right there. Soon a large doe came down the trail leading about a dozen more deer. I let her walk up so close that I was certain that she would bolt any instant. The distance was probably 25ft when I squeezed off a carefully aimed shot right behind the shoulder. The doe whirled and ran straight into her confused herd. She paused long enough for me to land a second shot on her, then turned and headed down the path once again right on us. She jumped the log we were sitting on as I poured it on her. She didn't know where the shots were coming from. I unloaded my six shot .357 into her. We were able to get her tagged after a pretty long trail. I believe that my first shot was a mortal wound.

Here's a case where 6 wasn't enough: https://www.rockawave.com/articles/20-years-laterrockaway-remembers-po-scott-gadell-2/

I knew a guy who emptied his super Blackhawk 44 magnun at a deputy sheriff (who I also knew) and got killed while he was trying to reload. He hit the deputy above the vest and took out a chunk of collar bone. Deputy emptied his gun, 14 rounds and got one hit (fatal), Unfortunate guy emptied his gun and got one hit.

GEM said:

Here's a case where 6 wasn't enough: https://www.rockawave.com/articles/20-years-laterrockaway-remembers-po-scott-gadell-2/

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I read the story in the link, but it's disqualified from the OP because it was by a law enforcement officer which was excluded in the question. There are numerous accounts of law enforcement reloading or failing to reload and we even have plenty of video of it. This is why it should be obvious that revolvers are a poor choice for standard law enforcement duty (notwithstanding special cases).

What I will note is that the officer apparently made zero hits with his first six rounds. This is also what happened to officer James Pence in the Newhall shooting. You just can't carry enough ammunition to win a fight with all misses.

I always have to wonder about the impetus behind starting these threads. Particularly given how the questions are phrased.

Jack Ryan said:

I used all ten from a 9mm Colt one night when a beaver surprised me up in the yard and he still got away.

That was enough to convince me I needed to carry "more gun". I keep thinking what if he could have shot back instead of running?

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Thus, the shotgun argument.

Merle1 said:

my opinion is that possums are too dumb to know they are dead....

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I have skinned possums shot in the head with smoke coming out their ears after being dog mauled for ten minutes and the possum was still breathing. Well one possum that way.

Since there is precious little data on civilian involved defensive firearm use, my advice is to use what you have the most confidence in.

I expect that if one digs deep enough probably a person has been found dead, with an empty weapon and lying on a pile of spent brass, regardless of the capacity of the magazine up to and including belt fed weapons. I recall a cop that was also the trainer for his dept that expended three full magazines in his full size Glock in .45 ACP, and at the end of the gunfight the perp arrived at the same hospital still alive (including at least one round to the head).

Right. Which has absolutely no bearing at all on how fast or easy it is to reload a revolver or semi-auto in an actual defensive encounter. Because the techniques you were both using at the range are not the techniques one would use to reload in a defensive encounterYou were not at all unclear. In the scheme of practicality (having to reload during a shooting is the context of the thread) nobody is going to count the work of loading rounds into a magazine as part of the "overall work" of the shooting any more than they are going to count the work of loading rounds into a speed loader, or the work of opening up the box that the cartridges came in. When people talk about the speed of reloading a firearm, they're not talking about the entire process starting from when the rounds came out of an ammo box. People don't plan to reload their firearm from an ammo box in the context of a shooting and that is why how fast one can do that is not relevant to discussions about reloading during self-defense shootings.

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I guess it was very unclear since obviously, I have failed in my attempt to add a little humor/levity to the thread, and you seem to have taken my comment very literally/seriously and as a criticism of semis. Of course I know the semi has both the capacity and reload advantage over a revolver in a SD situation, period... no arguments whatsoever. And yes, in a SD situation, of course our mags, cylinders, speed strips, etc are already pre-loaded and how they were preloaded is irreverent.

I was merely joking with the fellow in the next booth claiming the revolver was ‘faster/easier’ [ie, less work] to reload because he asked me the question while we were at the range, were he was in fact slower/more difficult to reload his mags, and he has to clean-up his brass [before we leave, which I didn’t think needed to be written, but obviously it does] at the range.