Inclusivity in gun culture will be the only thing that saves the 2A

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daniel craig

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So, I posted earlier in the week but the words didn’t say what I wanted them to say so I’m trying again.


To start, a little background.


I worked for a few years post military as a technician and firearms retail clerk at a larger gun store, in one of the less 2A friendly (or perhaps carefully 2A friendly) big box’s stores in a mostly blue and one of the stricter states.


Part of that job, other than selling guns, or perhaps as a way to be more effective in doing so was to listen to people’s stories and feeling on gun ownership.


In listening to those stories I came to realize that there are a lot of people who either feel hesitant to get into gun culture or have gotten into it and feel marginalized (or not represented or alone because they “do guns” differently) by the louder voices and attitudes mantras and leanings of the current established poweplayers or ideas.


Many of those marginalized people are or want to be strong 2A supporters but don’t feel they have a proper, inclusive place or community to do so.


Now, on to the title.


It strikes me that support in 2A is support in 2A even if it’s different from how we might expect or practice it ourselves. It’s support in 2A no matter where else it’s coming from. Many new people to a culture, no matter what that culture is, leave before they ever truly get started because they get pushed out for not doing the culture “the right way”. If thay culture leaves a bad taste in your mouth it’s easy to go tbe complete other side because there are people there like you, or with similar experiences.


It’s why all these other gun groups you may/may not have heard of, exist. Groups like:


the Socialist Rifle Association, https://socialistra.org/about/


Redneck Revolt/John Brown Gun club

https://www.redneckrevolt.org/


the Pink Pistols,

http://www.pinkpistols.org


the Liberal Gun Club,

https://theliberalgunclub.com/


the Huey P. Newton gun club,

https://hueypnewtongunclub.org/


National African American Gun Association

https://naaga.co/


and COUNTLESS others. All those groups exist because because the members of those groups felt left out of the current culture/discussion. They felt unwelcomed or unrepresented because in countless places where it seems that “anything less than 2A my way is anti-2A”.


Those groups, are our allies, whether you lean right or left or center 2A support is 2A support.


With all the Anti-2A out there can we really be choosy where 2A support comes from? Perhaps the best thing we can do for advocacy is giving those groups and groups like them voice on the stage and representation on the field. Support our brothers and sisters and others in guns even if they’re different in others.

Division and infighting in HOW or the BEST way to support 2A will be as much a contributor to its fall (if it does) as anti-gunners. Inclusivity no matter what, will save the 2A more than any single other thing.
 
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Thought provoking.

My initial response, after going through the links, is that some of these organizations are actively trying to overturn the very institutions which gave us the second amendment to begin with.

That lead me to my next response, which is that having a gun is not synonymous with protecting the bill of rights. This is ably demonstrated by any number of folks currently imprisoned for gun crimes.

Short version: the John Brown Gun Club featured prominently in the recent "CHAZ/CHOP" nonsense. These are not my allies.
 
Having said that, yes, people who generally believe in western civilization and who also want to own guns are my allies, regardless of relatively trivial disagreements re. lifestyle, etcetera. It would be foolish to not include folks because they are gay, black, or whatever. I doubt you'll find much disagreement with that, these days.

I'd just be careful about making that tent too big. Antifa, for example, is no friend of ours, regardless of how many guns they own.
 
I agree with @.38 Special , the issue here is that I don't think it's the pro-2A people excluding outsiders as much as it's one political party which has driven a wedge between its constituents & the second amendment. In years gone by most citizens supported the second amendment even if they didn't own guns . now belief in the ideals of the second amendment have been demonized by an entire subsection of the population.
I am really trying to do my best to prevent politics from creeping in on this one. It's not like all Democrats disapprove of the 2A and all Republicans support it but if someone were to choose a political party that represents the vast majority of their values but doesn't represent their view of the 2A then they have betrayed themselves and their voice regarding 2A matters will fall on the deaf ears of their chosen leadership.
There isn't any person (except certain convicted criminals ) that I'd say shouldn't be included in God given rights , I don't care who they are. No one I know would pourposely alienate a person who is interested in guns because of political , ethnic or any other situation but when I know someone supports the 2A but also supports leadership that would do anything to dissolve the 2A all I can think is that they've betrayed themselves and our founding fathers intent for our nation. I feel that strongly about it.
I don't think this issue can possibly be separated from politics and I'm not able to be any more specific in this forum but I hope I was able to share my view without making it overtly political .- at least I didn't call out anyone by name or party, I did my best.
 
Gun ownership is not an absolute, positional good. It is bad if psychopaths own guns. It is bad if rapists own guns. It is bad if violent racists own guns. It is bad if violent anarchists own guns. It is bad if domestic terrorists own guns......

That said, I have no problem with being inclusive of any race, religion, or political party- but the extremist elements of those groups are the very people who the 2A are meant to defend us from.
 
daniel craig said:
Those groups, are our allies, whether you lean right or left or center 2A support is 2A support.
Click to expand...
I generally agree with your sentiments. It has to be said, however, that some groups (and not just on the left -- you see this on the right as well) consider guns to be a means to further their political ends, and not as ends in themselves. Political violence is rearing its ugly head in the this country perhaps more than at any other time that I can remember. The 2A movement has to be very careful not to get caught up in this.
 
The implication folks need to be aware of is that the sort of people who are most likely to be open to pro-gun arguments are also innately pro-personal choice when it comes to things like sexuality, recreational activities, and so on. If you package pro-gun with a platform that tries to dictate personal choices about other subjects, you create a situation where people need to choose which issues are most important to them, and guns are likely to lose that conflict.
 
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What would be the point of any American welcoming ANY of those listed groups in to ANY thing?

I don't care if you were talking about Sunday morning Euchre tournaments, I don't like/care a bit about ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE who I imagine are a part of ANY OF THOSE ORGANIZATIONS and I don't want to see them places I go. I don't want to be around them in any of the activities I care to participate in and I SURE AS HECK do not want to become a bitter violent threat to me, my country, or any of the activities I want to participate in.

Socialists? Pink Pistols? Liberals? QW#^@# I can't even say what I think about them. Have you been watching ANY NEWS NETWORK the past 6 months? Even better since 2016?
 
You speak of gun culture like it's a thing, but I imagine what you're referring to is more 'right wing, conservative gun culture'. Perhaps more accurately, 'right wing, conservative culture' that historically has been inextricably linked to the support of the 2A, as well as a generalized fondness for all things firearm. A subtle distinction, but an important one I believe.

I echo the sentiments above regarding at least a couple (not all) of the organizations you mentioned; while they may be helpful in the short-term for stemming the assault against the 2A, many of their underlying principles aim to erode fundamentals even more important. Like AlexanderA says, "a means to an end".

That being said, we can't in good conscience hope to deny some Americans the same rights we pretend to defend, regardless of their political views. That's the price we all pay for freedom. Anyone who sees <insert group with guns here> as a threat has to know they've likely viewed 'us' as a threat in the past. Hopefully we can all learn we were wrong, but I have serious doubts.

Personally, I'm tired of all the labels. These two sides everyone seems to be self-sorting themselves into are IMO more dangerous to the fabric of our nation than any other threat. I wish a shared belief system like the 2A could bring us all together, but I don't see that happening. The reason all these new gun clubs exist is because we all think the 'other guy' is our enemy, and we're arming for war. I never thought I'd witness the level of division in our country we're seeing now.
 
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NIGHTLORD40K said:
Gun ownership is not an absolute, positional good. It is bad if psychopaths own guns. It is bad if rapists own guns. It is bad if violent racists own guns. It is bad if violent anarchists own guns. It is bad if domestic terrorists own guns......

That said, I have no problem with being inclusive of any race, religion, or political party- but the extremist elements of those groups are the very people who the 2A are meant to defend us from.
Click to expand...

I hear ya. Some of those groups mentioned were just plain radical, political extremist and racist. I can't even imagine bringing along a youngster in some of those whacked out groups. Not sure they are really into the 2A as much as they are themselves and their radical views.
 
The people in those groups are wackos, for the most part. I believe that our focus should be on average new gun owners. We need to tone ourselves down. Talk about 2A exclusively. Don't go off on "the Liberals," "Socialism," or whatever. Like it or not, we come across as wackos to the average person.
 
AlexanderA said:
I generally agree with your sentiments. It has to be said, however, that some groups (and not just on the left -- you see this on the right as well) consider guns to be a means to further their political ends, and not as ends in themselves.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying, but the 2A isn't about guns being an end in themselves, it's about the people retaining the ability to use them to, basically, keep the government in constant fear. It actually is about furthering political ends (or maybe preventing political ends, which is almost the same thing), in a way.
 
daniel craig said:
It strikes me that support in 2A is support in 2A even if it’s different from how we might expect or practice it ourselves. It’s support in 2A no matter where else it’s coming from.
Click to expand...
I would say that support for the 2A is support as long as that person or organization doesn't start infringing or want to infringe on other freedoms at the same time.
 
It is just as well the public does not become aware of a few of these fringe organizations. Especially in the times we have now. They will only harm the image. They will do nothing but hurt public perception. Some anti gun folks would even be fearful. Dark undertones throughout their rules and what they believe is not going to help with 2A rights. On the contrary.
 
azrocks said:
You speak of gun culture like it's a thing, but I imagine what you're referring to is more 'right wing, conservative gun culture'. Perhaps more accurately, 'right wing, conservative culture' that historically has been inextricably linked to the support of the 2A, as well as a generalized fondness for all things firearm.
Click to expand...
If you want proof of this, just look at the pages of the American Rifleman every month, as well as web sites like ar15.com. This political "culture" is becoming a bubble that speaks only to itself and is increasingly divorced from the general political reality in this country. Hence the OP's point is well taken that we have to broaden the appeal of the 2A movement. We can't rely on a dying demographic (rural, older, white males).
 
daniel craig said:
With all the Anti-2A out there can we really be choosy where 2A support comes from? Perhaps the best thing we can do for advocacy is giving those groups and groups like them voice on the stage and representation on the field. Support our brothers and sisters and others in guns even if they’re different in others.

Division and infighting in HOW or the BEST way to support 2A will be as much a contributor to its fall (if it does) as anti-gunners. Inclusivity no matter what, will save the 2A more than any single other thing.
Click to expand...


That's one of the points we've made here in THR, and something that SAF just rolled out. There are many more people interested in firearms ownership than represented on "traditional" firearms forums because there's too much dismissive, derisive, and divisive behavior from some/many members in other forums (and, sadly sometimes at THR).

THR requires civility because we see too little of it in Social Media and Forums. This wasn't just because we wanted to be different and provide a home for people who didn't like trash talk, insults, or misanthropic mewling. We did it as a form of fundamental activism to let everyone that stumbled across THR see that firearms owners were the good neighbor that is willing to help instead of the cartoon reckless-dangerous redneck/gang member that Antis always depict us as. 2A activism is a political as well as a hearts & minds effort and the more people we welcome into the firearms community the more we can build support for the firearms community and the 2A. Having a diverse firearms community also puts the lie to the Anits depiction of us. We are here to show that the Antis are lying about us in every way they paint us as dangerous haters or irresponsible children.

There are haters of every kind out there, but they're not the majority. Some are on the extreme right and advocate and encourage violence and we can't support them any more than those espousing hate on the other end of the spectrum because they aren't advocates for the the 2A. They are simply abusing it for their ends. BUT we also must keep in mind that we can't let our own personal prejudices lead us to lump everyone that doesn't look/think like us into those hateful groups. Organizations like the Liberal Gun Club, Pink Pistols, National African American Gun Association are our allies. Each organization needs to be seen as potentially good for the 2A until we can determine if they're advocating violence and using the 2A as cover (like we see from some on the right).

We need to welcome diverse groups of firearms forums that don't espouse hate or violence as they serve folks curious or interested in firearms, but we're stronger as a community if we are welcoming to everyone interested or even just curious about firearms and RKBA because winning their hearts and minds can also insulate them from the violent extremists just using the 2A. If you care about the 2A, firearms, community you need people that aren't exactly like you to strengthen support for the 2A against the attacks on it from different directions. A table can't stand if it only has legs on one side and we can't stand against the antis if support only comes from one side of the political/social the spectrum.
 
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azrocks said:
Personally, I'm tired of all the labels. These two sides everyone seems to be self-sorting themselves into are IMO more dangerous to the fabric of our nation than any other threat. I wish a shared belief system like the 2A could bring us all together, but I don't see that happening. The reason all these new gun clubs exist is because we all think the 'other guy' is our enemy, and we're arming for war. I never thought I'd witness the level of division in our country we're seeing now.
Click to expand...

I'm also tired of the labels. We are being divided and I don't believe it is organic or spontaneous. We are being "played" as some people would say and there are plenty of suspects in this crime. (big tech, elites, media, foreign countries, etc)

I personally encourage my friends, family and coworkers to get their carry license, own guns and train for self defense. One on one seems to have the most effect. Some of these groups are controlled by sinister forces aimed at dividing the country, which is why I'm suspicious of most new organizations these days.
 
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AlexanderA said:
If you want proof of this, just look at the pages of the American Rifleman every month, as well as web sites like ar15.com. This political "culture" is becoming a bubble that speaks only to itself and is increasingly divorced from the general political reality in this country. Hence the OP's point is well taken that we have to broaden the appeal of the 2A movement. We can't rely on a dying demographic (rural, older, white males).
Click to expand...
That’s exactly it.
 
hso said:
THR requires civility because we see too little of it in Social Media and Forums. This wasn't just because we wanted to be different and provide a home for people who didn't like trash talk, insults, or misanthropic mewling. We did it as a form of fundamental activism to let everyone that stumbled across THR see that firearms owners were the good neighbor that is willing to help instead of the cartoon reckless-dangerous redneck/gang member that Antis always depict us as.

We need to welcome diverse groups of firearms forums that don't espouse hate...
Click to expand...

Great post, and I wholeheartedly agree. That said...


Jack Ryan said:
What would be the point of any American welcoming ANY of those listed groups in to ANY thing?

I don't care if you were talking about Sunday morning Euchre tournaments, I don't like/care a bit about ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE who I imagine are a part of ANY OF THOSE ORGANIZATIONS and I don't want to see them places I go. I don't want to be around them in any of the activities I care to participate in and I SURE AS HECK do not want to become a bitter violent threat to me, my country, or any of the activities I want to participate in.

Socialists? Pink Pistols? Liberals? QW#^@# I can't even say what I think about them. Have you been watching ANY NEWS NETWORK the past 6 months? Even better since 2016?
Click to expand...

These types of posts don’t exactly reflect that message.
 
.38 Special said:
My initial response, after going through the links, is that some of these organizations are actively trying to overturn the very institutions which gave us the second amendment to begin with.
Click to expand...
Many of those people have never had equal representation in “those institutions that gave us the 2nd amendment” so part of me can’t blame Them for wanting to overturn those institutions.
 
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