I've recently elevated my interest in AR .223 SBRs and AR 9mm pistols. Two in particular have captured my focus. The ZEV .223 rifle style pistol and the CMMG Banshee 300. Would love to hear from people who have experience with these guns. Please share the good and the bad. As always, thanks for your help.
Questions about AR pistols??
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Zaydok Allen
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Good: they are hilarious and can be effective if used with a brace or a sling.
Bad: They are large for anything you want to use a handgun on, they are louder than hell, and can be expensive.
I owned a Sig P556...……….past tense. This was before the braces came out. If I was going to do it over, I'd go for a CZ Scorpion with a suppressor for home defense in 9mm. But it's going to be a long time before I buy another gun.
Bad: They are large for anything you want to use a handgun on, they are louder than hell, and can be expensive.
I owned a Sig P556...……….past tense. This was before the braces came out. If I was going to do it over, I'd go for a CZ Scorpion with a suppressor for home defense in 9mm. But it's going to be a long time before I buy another gun.
Alex Clayton
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The pistol in pistol caliber are a ton of damn fun. The one CMMG makes is VERY nice. That is with a brace. I suspect the way it's going we will lose the ability to have the brace since so few shooters seem to care sadly. Without the brace these will be not much fun at all. For now? They are not only a ton and half of fun, they make a great home defense gun. In some states like mine, I can legally carry one loaded in my vehicle since it's a hand gun. A CMMG in 10mm is high on my want list.
Now the same in .223? Really not for me but, many love them. They are LOUD. First time someone was shooting one next to me at an indoor I thought they had some kind of large magnum. Was surprised to see it was just a .223. Kind of like those old pistols in 30 Carbine. Amazing amount of muzzle blast. If you go SBR and get a stamp you of course no longer have to wait for them to do away with the Brace's and can add a vertical fore grip if you like. Many hate on these things but I really love the pistol caliber ones, and CMMG is top of the line.
AlexanderA
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Novelty item. They are a thing because people don't want to (or can't) jump through the hoops to get a legal SBR. An AR "pistol" would be a joke, if this was a rational world.
I have a 10.5" 300 and a 10.5" 7.62x39. I'm putting a can on the 300 for subsonics.
Would I get a 9mm? Only if I already had an AR pistol and the upper came with a mag well adapter that worked on common mags OR I could use the mag adapter and it ran reliably.
If I didn't have an AR I would get the Ruger Charger 9mm running on Glock mags.
5.56 pistols? Range toys. Far too much power thrown away to make noise and fire.
.22lr AR pistol upper? Depend if I can drop it on an existing lower and run the .22lr mags.
Would I get a 9mm? Only if I already had an AR pistol and the upper came with a mag well adapter that worked on common mags OR I could use the mag adapter and it ran reliably.
If I didn't have an AR I would get the Ruger Charger 9mm running on Glock mags.
5.56 pistols? Range toys. Far too much power thrown away to make noise and fire.
.22lr AR pistol upper? Depend if I can drop it on an existing lower and run the .22lr mags.
mcb
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Make stupid gun laws get stupid gun gadgets.
I would not mind getting the SBR but the interstate travel restrictions makes that more of a hassle than it's worth given that I go, several times a month, across a state line with my pistol AR.
This video just came out today and should be of value to the thread. Chris Baker (from Lucky Gunner) does, as usual, a very good job of explaining the differences and good/bad features (legal and functional) of a SBR vs a pistol brace.
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brewer12345
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My buddy has one which he claims he would use for home defense. I think the neighbors would be deaf if he did so. I think they are basically toys. If you want an extremely loud toy, have at it. I don't personally see the attraction, but it would be a funny old world if we all had the same tastes.
After reading your responses and doing some additional research, I think I'm sold on the CMMG Banshee 300 and not the SBR. I live in Kansas and can carry it in the seat beside me. Heck with my CC license, I can even get a mega shoulder holster and carry it. My chief interest is home/self defense and some range fun when ammo prices become more reasonable again. I really don't think the SBR carbines will work for me. I already have a custom AR 15 .223 that is a kick-ass rifle. Only way I would have one is if it was suppressed. I've already lost enough hearing!
Alex Clayton
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You should be VERY happy with the CMMG. If / when they do take the braces away from us you can always just turn it into a nice carbine easy also. When this panic is over lay in a supply of ammo for it. Damn they are easy to burn through a lot of it in a session since they are too much fun
jmorris
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How do you like the endomags so far?
jmorris
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I can’t say they will last longer than my steel colt mags but I haven’t broke any. It’s nice to be able to throw an upper on and go using them but I can’t say I like the ejector to be part of the magazine. As unload and clear is pretty engrained my head vs clear the gun, drop the mag, then lower the bolt. Not that difficult just different. Only other con is that I generally prefer (shorter) 20 round mags, if I’m not playing gun games.
Armored farmer
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My 10.5" 556 AR is my favorite AR. Quick pointing and compact, it delivers more firepower than any other handgun.
edwardware
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The AR pistol form factor is perfect. . . ~short range carbine/PDW accuracy in a compact package.
.223/5.56 in a 10" barrel is obscenely loud. It's embarrassing (even on a rifle range), and the fireball is really a bit outrageous. A .300BO is much more civilized.
Buy one, you'll like it!
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Legionnaire
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Zaydok Allen
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Agree. 300 BO is a much better choice for an AR pistol
mcb
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I was reading this thread and watching YouTube and that video came up in the recommended section. Seemed the perfect fit, so I shared.
I agree, and especially if you are going to suppress it.
This little 9-inch 300 BO pistol and it is with my anytime I am out at the hunting property. Rides on the UTV/tractor in a scabbard and has schwacked it's fair share of armadillos in the past two years.
Legionnaire
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I keep going back and forth on an AR pistol. Right now I'm leaning toward one of the 9mm Ruger PC Chargers instead. Of course, I don't need either.
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mcb
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9mm is certainly cheaper to feed but 300 BO performs as well or better when running subs for quite. The exterior ballistics are a little flatter. I have been able to ring a 10-inch gong at 200 yards with my 300 BO very reliably. If you are willing to spend the money on good bullets the terminal effects of the expanding 300 BO subsonic bullets is getting impressive.
My favorite 300 BO bullet, 220gr Maker REX
300 BO also gives you the option to go loud where super-sonic 300 BO from a 8-10 inch barrel is on par with 223/556 from a 16 inch barrel at least at moderate and short ranges. And when talking about the AR platform the 300 BO conversion is much easier/reliable from a parts perspective, everything but the barrel is basically 556 parts. The only other thing is magazines, with some heavy subsonic loads may require 300 BO specific magazines.
this discussion would be greatly improved by not conflating barrel length with receiver's designation of pistol or rifle or "firearm"
there is a world of difference between AR15s with like 7" barrels and no brace that are typically low quality range toys, and ARs with 10"+ barrels that are designated as "pistols" for legal purposes to
- allow carry in some states where you can carry pistols but not rifles
- to avoid the hassles that come with SBR, including getting ATF permission every time you cross the state line
keep in mind the standard issue M4 that the Army uses is a 14" barrel, and there are a ton of 10.5" barreled ARs used by the military. So barrels under 16" doesn't immediately make them "range toys".
556/223 in a 10-14" barrel will still achieve enough velocity for m193 to reliably fragment out past 100 yards.
I'm not a huge fan of 9mm ARs. I prefer platforms that were designed around blowback operation and the handgun calibers like CZ Scorpion or B&T. That's not to say CMMG's delayed blowback system isn't ingeniously shoe-horned in, but it's still a shoe-horn job.
I also have 300BO ARs and bolt guns. It's a great caliber, especially for pistols with barrels under 10". I prefer 223's ballistics in barrels over 10".
I have both SBR and pistols, and they both work great. I keep both mostly in case the legal environment changes.
for your home, i'd stick with your custom AR. For vehicle carry, a 300blk with 8" barrel or 223 with 10.5" barrel "pistol" with brace is a great choice
the advantage to 9mm carbines is they're phenomenally easy to point and shoot, especially suppressed. very very easy for new shooters and people who never practice to get some hits. That's not particularly true for ARs in 223 or 300blk. Using a 9mm carbine for HD or vehicle carry is also a great choice, but understand there is still a huge difference in terminal ballistics between a rifle and pistol caliber (i.e. % of hits goes up with 9mm, but those hits are less effective. maybe they're effective enough, but still less than a rifle caliber. And hits are way more effective than misses.)
Good, point. I should have been more specific that I considered the very short barrel ARs being for noise and flash. OTOH, I wasn't aware of military use of any 5.56 ARs in the 10.5" length. 9mm, sure, but 5.56 is interesting.
I felt it was “worth it” to add a Daniel Defense DDM4 V7P, factory-equipped with a LAW folder and SB Tactical brace, a couple of years ago. Some jurisdictions that forbid the transportation of loaded long guns, inside vehicles, do allow the carry of loaded HANDguns inside vehicles. Some jurisdictions that allow me to carry concealed handguns may not allow rifles to be carried in anything other than cases and containers SPECIFICALLY designed as firearms cases or containers, but will let me conceal a pistol in any way that I choose.
The AR15-based pistol has more relevance, if one also has one or more AR15 rifles. Manual of arms is mostly the same, and parts will, largely, interchange. One can elect to keep all of them using the same cartridge, to simplify ammo logistics. In my case, I went with 300 AAC/BLK, in the pistol, while remaining with .223/5.56 NATO in the rifles, but have very nearly added a 16” 300 AAC/BLK upper.
If a future govt edict makes the brace legally problematic, well, the weapon will be somewhat less ergonomic, but will not be rendered useless. If a future law or edict makes an AR15 pistol too much of a bother, to transport, well, I could install a 16” barrel, or have one of those extended muzzle devices pinned and tack-welded, and THEN add a minimalist clamp-on stock to the buffer tube; instant Non-NFA rifle.
Notably, I am cognizant of just how “close to the edge” some combinations of buffer tube, brace, strap, and folding device really are, legally. When I needed to clean my brace, and wanted to remove the strap from the brace, for example, I removed the whole brace, from the buffer tube.
One should also follow the developments in the LOP issue, with pistol braces. Notably, a LAW folder adds about an inch, to the LOP.
I am much less of a fan of 9mm, or other pistol cartridges, in an AR15-based pistol. A holster-able pistol makes more sense, for my use cases. I will not, however, gripe about what others do, in this regard.
The AR15-based pistol has more relevance, if one also has one or more AR15 rifles. Manual of arms is mostly the same, and parts will, largely, interchange. One can elect to keep all of them using the same cartridge, to simplify ammo logistics. In my case, I went with 300 AAC/BLK, in the pistol, while remaining with .223/5.56 NATO in the rifles, but have very nearly added a 16” 300 AAC/BLK upper.
If a future govt edict makes the brace legally problematic, well, the weapon will be somewhat less ergonomic, but will not be rendered useless. If a future law or edict makes an AR15 pistol too much of a bother, to transport, well, I could install a 16” barrel, or have one of those extended muzzle devices pinned and tack-welded, and THEN add a minimalist clamp-on stock to the buffer tube; instant Non-NFA rifle.
Notably, I am cognizant of just how “close to the edge” some combinations of buffer tube, brace, strap, and folding device really are, legally. When I needed to clean my brace, and wanted to remove the strap from the brace, for example, I removed the whole brace, from the buffer tube.
One should also follow the developments in the LOP issue, with pistol braces. Notably, a LAW folder adds about an inch, to the LOP.
I am much less of a fan of 9mm, or other pistol cartridges, in an AR15-based pistol. A holster-able pistol makes more sense, for my use cases. I will not, however, gripe about what others do, in this regard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Quarters_Battle_Receiver
google MK18 mod 0 or mod 1 (those are technically 10.3" but the larger point remains that they are practical)
DD makes a pretty good knock off
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