Best No. +P ammo for S&W 640 Centennial

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Mikey5oh said:
I was carrying Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. +P but was told by S&W that even though the 640 is a steel framed gun, they don’t advise putting +P thru it. They told me that the gun wasn’t tested for +P ammo and that I should use Standard Pressure. They also told me to stay away from Buffalo Bore & Underwood ammo because they don’t meet SAAMI specs. Im hearing different things from different people..
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The product page at the Smith and Wesson website says the 640 is "Rated for continuous +P Use". If they're telling you something else then it is in conflict with their own documentation. You should only decide on something you're comfortable with but if it puts your mind at ease you can always buy a .357 magnum and load it down with .38+p. If S&W ever recommends against that then the lawyers have won.
 
SeanSw said:
The product page at the Smith and Wesson website says the 640 is "Rated for continuous +P Use". If they're telling you something else then it is in conflict with their own documentation. You should only decide on something you're comfortable with but if it puts your mind at ease you can always buy a .357 magnum and load it down with .38+p. If S&W ever recommends against that then the lawyers have won.
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Thanks Sean. I just looked at the website and noticed that. I contacted Smith & Wesson again and they said that they don’t recommend +P for the “older” 640s made before 1997 such as mine which was purchased in 1990. I’m assuming that the statement “Rated for continuous +P Use" is referring to the current model?
 
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Mikey5oh, I've owned several J-Frames, and bought my 640 new sometime in the mid '90s. I recall some, earlier than mine, 640s bore the "Tested for +P+" marking. Mine was not so marked, but I doubt that S&W decided to make subsequent 640 production weaker somehow. I carried the gun on and off duty, and was issued +P ammo from the first. Other than the action getting smoother over the last 25 years or so, I can detect no accelerated wear or damage to my gun from use of +P ammo. I have a S&W 940 of similar size, weight and vintage, that operates at the much higher 9MM pressures. I have shot +P and +P+ ammo in the 940, and other than sticky extraction with some +P+ 9MM, have experienced no issues. I guess I'm just saying from a revolver durability standpoint, I have experienced no issues, and have no concerns about use of .38 +P in the J-Frame revolvers. FWIW, The SCSW just says the 640s are rated for +P. I certainly understand from a liability point of view, it is in the manufactuer's best interest to train CS reps to recommend the most conservative approach to any question. I guess best would be that the consumer never load or fire the gun at all;)
5-shooters (3) - Copy.JPG
 
Mikey5oh said:
Hey Thomas, the reason why I was inquiring about Standard Pressure ammunition is because i was told by S&W that the 640 Centennial wasn’t rated for +P ammunition. I’m hearing different things from different people. The NYPD had us shoot 135 gr Speer Gold Dots +Ps thru them even though someone from S&W told me that +P’s shouldn’t be used in any gun made prior to 1997. I bought mine in 1990.
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I would do whatever you are most comfortable with. Even the new low performance level of 38 Special is a round I would not like to have fired at me. And the hotter the ammo the faster the wear on any gun. But thats not to say firing +P is going to wear out your gun after the first box is fired. Practice with the low power stuff and save the hotter loads for serious use.
 
Mikey5oh,

S&W has upgraded the quality of their guns as far as +P ammo is concerned. That does not mean there is anything wrong with your 640, it just may not be as strong as later guns due to the metal used, heat treatment and any changes S&W has made. I would stick with the "standard pressure" ammo. It is what I have done with my alloy model 12 which is a 6 shot K-frame gun with an aluminum frame and on my 5 shot revolvers like the model 36, 38 and CHARTER ARMS Undercover.
As for NYPD, when I joined my agency, not the NYPD, they issued +P+ 9m.m. to anyone carrying an approved, personally purchased pistol, like the GLOCK 17 or 19 or a SIG 226. NONE OF THOSE GUNS WERE RATED FOR +P+ because there is no standard for +P+, but they wanted us to carry ammo that was effective and if it wore out our guns sooner, well that was the price we paid. Later on, when we went to the .40 S&W, the very effective ammo that we used wore out our BERETTA 96's, in 10 years. I carried mine for only 8 years, before having to turn it in.

NYPD was issuing an ammo it considered effective after having a lot of union problems over the 158 grain lead round nose, aka: the widow maker. Your gun will not blow up, but it will shake itself loose to the point it will not function.

I use HORNADY 110 grain FTX load, the standard pressure, not the +P. I have tried the WINCHESTER Train & Defend, but have had to many problems with WINCHESTER ammo not firing in my S&W'S. This is not a problem in my RUGER'S, I do not know why.

I have also tried COLT and DOUBLE TAP 110 grain jhp standard pressure ammo in my model 12. They are supposed to be safe, however, flash and recoil were very noticeably increased.

I am not sure that there is a really good performing standard pressure load for a 2 inch barreled .38 Special.

Good luck with your search,

Jim
 
Rock185 said:
Mikey5oh, I've owned several J-Frames, and bought my 640 new sometime in the mid '90s. I recall some, earlier than mine, 640s bore the "Tested for +P+" marking. Mine was not so marked, but I doubt that S&W decided to make subsequent 640 production weaker somehow. I carried the gun on and off duty, and was issued +P ammo from the first. Other than the action getting smoother over the last 25 years or so, I can detect no accelerated wear or damage to my gun from use of +P ammo. I have a S&W 940 of similar size, weight and vintage, that operates at the much higher 9MM pressures. I have shot +P and +P+ ammo in the 940, and other than sticky extraction with some +P+ 9MM, have experienced no issues. I guess I'm just saying from a revolver durability standpoint, I have experienced no issues, and have no concerns about use of .38 +P in the J-Frame revolvers. FWIW, The SCSW just says the 640s are rated for +P. I certainly understand from a liability point of view, it is in the manufactuer's best interest to train CS reps to recommend the most conservative approach to any question. I guess best would be that the consumer never load or fire the gun at all;)
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Hey Rock, thank you for your reply. I bought my 640 brand new back in 1990 and there is no markings on the gun that states +P. I also carried the gun on and off duty and was issued +P ammo from my department. I never had an issue until I sent the gun to S&W a few months ago for an inspection. That’s when they told me that the cylinder needed to be repaired because of slight damage to the chambers. When I asked what caused the damage, they said that it could possibly be due to the age of the gun and shooting +P ammunition thru it. They told me that the gun isn’t rated for +P. Someone on this thread just mentioned that the product page on the S&W website states that the 640 is "Rated for continuous +P Use". I’m going to assume (as you mentioned) that the website is referring to the newer 640’s made after 1997. S&W just emailed me today stating -

Dear Customer,

Occasional use is okay. We didn't start rating our smaller firearms for full use until 1998.
 
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golden said:
Mikey5oh,

S&W has upgraded the quality of their guns as far as +P ammo is concerned. That does not mean there is anything wrong with your 640, it just may not be as strong as later guns due to the metal used, heat treatment and any changes S&W has made. I would stick with the "standard pressure" ammo. It is what I have done with my alloy model 12 which is a 6 shot K-frame gun with an aluminum frame and on my 5 shot revolvers like the model 36, 38 and CHARTER ARMS Undercover.
As for NYPD, when I joined my agency, not the NYPD, they issued +P+ 9m.m. to anyone carrying an approved, personally purchased pistol, like the GLOCK 17 or 19 or a SIG 226. NONE OF THOSE GUNS WERE RATED FOR +P+ because there is no standard for +P+, but they wanted us to carry ammo that was effective and if it wore out our guns sooner, well that was the price we paid. Later on, when we went to the .40 S&W, the very effective ammo that we used wore out our BERETTA 96's, in 10 years. I carried mine for only 8 years, before having to turn it in.

NYPD was issuing an ammo it considered effective after having a lot of union problems over the 158 grain lead round nose, aka: the widow maker. Your gun will not blow up, but it will shake itself loose to the point it will not function.

I use HORNADY 110 grain FTX load, the standard pressure, not the +P. I have tried the WINCHESTER Train & Defend, but have had to many problems with WINCHESTER ammo not firing in my S&W'S. This is not a problem in my RUGER'S, I do not know why.

I have also tried COLT and DOUBLE TAP 110 grain jhp standard pressure ammo in my model 12. They are supposed to be safe, however, flash and recoil were very noticeably increased.

I am not sure that there is a really good performing standard pressure load for a 2 inch barreled .38 Special.

Good luck with your search,

Jim
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Hey Jim, I also use the Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain FTX rounds. It’s a great round.. probably the best Standard Pressure round that I’ve personally used. Paul Harrell made a YouTube video which shows its a destructive round but penetration is questionable.
 
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In the standard pressure factory 158 gr LSWC class, Privi Partisan (PPU) seems to have a bit more oomph then the rest of the entries, but that could just be my imagination.
I'd be grateful just to find .any 158 gr SWC 38 Specs in the stores, these days!
 
Privi lists 900+ fps in non +P 158 gr loadings. I use it all the time, got 2K @ $13/box. Most defensive caliber ammo is "Unobtanium" right now. Joe
 
MIkey5oh,

I would not worry so much about penetration. My agency found that 9 inches was all we needed. That was 30 years ago and nothing has contradicted it.

Jim
 
Hornady Critical Defense makes some good non +P .38 for their Critical Defense line. The 90 grain option is very good if you want an ultra low recoil choice and don't have an issue with some bullets only getting 10" of penetration while the 110 gr load penetrates, but doesn't expand fully some of the time.

There are a few other standard pressure choices, but none of them will be as low in price or as common as the Hornady ammo is.
 
I carry Hornady Critical Defense 110gr standard pressure.... in my Charter Undercover lite .. I try not to practice alot with any 38+P in my 38 spl handguns ... As others mentioned the Federal 130gr
HST is a extremely mild +P round
 
TTv2 said:
Hornady Critical Defense makes some good non +P .38 for their Critical Defense line. The 90 grain option is very good if you want an ultra low recoil choice and don't have an issue with some bullets only getting 10" of penetration while the 110 gr load penetrates, but doesn't expand fully some of the time.

There are a few other standard pressure choices, but none of them will be as low in price or as common as the Hornady ammo is.
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I wish Hornady made a Wadcutter round.
 
With all the different loadings, velocities and bullet weights given here, IMHO, I'd be more concerned with ammo that shot to POA with the fixed sights. A lightweight JHP that gives massive expansion is worthless if it won't hit where it's pointed. A FMJ that is a tack-driver will be much more effective. Folks worry way to much about the hype of boutique ammo and not enough about how it shoots from their gun.
 
buck460XVR said:
With all the different loadings, velocities and bullet weights given here, IMHO, I'd be more concerned with ammo that shot to POA with the fixed sights. A lightweight JHP that gives massive expansion is worthless if it won't hit where it's pointed. A FMJ that is a tack-driver will be much more effective. Folks worry way to much about the hype of boutique ammo and not enough about how it shoots from their gun.
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The majority of self defense scenarios are within 7 yards. My main concern would be the amount of damage (stopping power) the round has. Although I prefer Speer Gold and Hornady Critical Defense especially for a snubnose, I’m starting to think about wadcutters.
 
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TTv2 said:
Hornady Critical Defense makes some good non +P .38 for their Critical Defense line. The 90 grain option is very good if you want an ultra low recoil choice and don't have an issue with some bullets only getting 10" of penetration while the 110 gr load penetrates, but doesn't expand fully some of the time.

There are a few other standard pressure choices, but none of them will be as low in price or as common as the Hornady ammo is.
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TTv2 my two favorite rounds especially for snubbies are the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr and Hornady Critical Defense. As you mentioned, the issue with a short barrel is the expansion of a hollow points. The Gold Dots have a pretty good track record. I’m also starting to think more about wadcutters. The buffalo bore Standard Pressure 150 grain wadcutter seems like a good choice. The only negative comments I hear about that round is that they may be too hot.. especially for the 642 aluminum frame as well as an older 640.
 
ThomasT said:
I wondered why the OP wanted non +P ammo and just thought it for lower recoil. Since his gun is rated for real 38 Special ammo it will easily handle the +P loads that are at best the same as original 38 Special loads. Reducing bullet weight goes a long way towards reducing recoil.
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Hey Thomas, the reason I am inquiring about a non +P round is not because of recoil but because of the gun itself. I purchased my 640 Centennial in 1990 and although the gun has a steel frame, it’s not +P rated as the ones made after 1997.
 
golden said:
MIkey5oh,

I would not worry so much about penetration. My agency found that 9 inches was all we needed. That was 30 years ago and nothing has contradicted it.

Jim
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Jim, the environment is a factor as far as penetration goes. If you are in a cold climate where people are wearing heavy winter clothes, penetration is definitely something to take into account.
 
My 640 .38 was bought in 1991, so it was of a similar vintage. I traded it for a 2.5” Model 19 in 1994, a gun that was just sitting in a friends safe untouched for years.

Back when I had this gun the duty/off duty load issued by the department was the FBI 158 gr +P LSWC. As S&W confirmed, the all steel 1990’s Model 640 reissue is plenty strong for limited +P use, in fact it could probably handle a daily diet of them. I wouldn’t shoot anything but standard pressure loads in the “lemon squeezer” Centennials from days of yore.

Since most folks don’t shoot a lot of rounds through their snubnosed revolvers because they are not the most pleasant to shoot even with Wadcutter bullseye loads, you’ll rarely find one that’s rattling from use. (You have to shoot an awful lot of .38 +P to loosen the 640 up.)

Shoot practice loads such as a 158 gr SWC that will have similar recoil as the lighter weight +P defensive loads.

I load the +P critical defense load in my snub revolvers. I found it has a decent combo of accuracy and expansion/penetration/acceptable recoil for any of my four .38 Spl. snubs (642 and 49 S&W, SP 101 Ruger and new model Colt Cobra.) Hornady also catalogues a non +P version of the same 110 gr load of that is the way you want to go :thumbup:.

Stay safe.
 
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Riomouse911 said:
My 640 .38 was bought in 1991, so it was of a similar vintage. I traded it for a 2.5” Model 19 in 1994, a gun that was just sitting in a friends safe untouched for years.

Back when I had this gun the duty/off duty load issued by the department was the FBI 158 gr +P LSWC. As S&W confirmed, the all steel 1990’s Model 640 reissue is plenty strong for limited +P use, in fact it could probably handle a daily diet of them. I wouldn’t shoot anything but standard pressure loads in the “lemon squeezer” Centennials from days of yore.

Since most folks don’t shoot a lot of rounds through their snubnosed revolvers because they are not the most pleasant to shoot even with Wadcutter bullseye loads, you’ll rarely find one that’s rattling from use. (You have to shoot an awful lot of .38 +P to loosen the 640 up.)

Shoot practice loads such as a 158 gr SWC that will have similar recoil as the lighter weight +P defensive loads.

I load the +P critical defense load in my snub revolvers. I found it has a decent combo of accuracy and expansion/penetration/acceptable recoil for any of my four .38 Spl. snubs (642 and 49 S&W, SP 101 Ruger and new model Colt Cobra.) Hornady also catalogues a non +P version of the same 110 gr load of that is the way you want to go :thumbup:.

Stay safe.
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Riomouse911 thanks for your reply. I remember being issued the 158 gr +P LSWC‘s also. In fact I still have a couple of boxes laying around. I also like the Hornady Critical Defense rounds as well as the Speer Gold Dots. Do you think my 640 can handle these Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure rounds without any problems?
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=111
 
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For a standard pressure .38 load that can serve for defense, I usually go with LSWC (the hotter the better). Another alternative is some S&B ball that I still have a few boxes of; it seems pretty spicy. Both are 158 grains.


Some people recommend wadcutters (148 grains). I am not sure if I am on board with this school of thought, but I will put that out there as well.
 
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I just want to add personal experience with the Winchester made +P+ LEO issued "Treasury Load" that evemtually was even issued to Park rangers ect. during the revolver days. I shot about 500 of those thru an alloy frame Colt Agent and a few hundred thru an S&W Model 60 in the 70s and early 80s and the Colt did start to loosen before I stopped doing it, the stainless 1980 Model 60 made it OK but I stopped using that "free" duty ammo in anything under a K frame rated .357 .
Also I was involved in a couple shootings with that load and it's performance was poor IMHO. The suspect in both of those shootings did scream in pain quicker than most bullet wounds to torso from pistols, but it lacked bone breaking power and did not exit the body from a full frontal shot , nor did it expand over .40" or so ! From a 6" barrel pistol to game up to 50 pounds it has shown me to be very effective. Humans not so much. I also saw 90 grain 9mm hollowpoints not so great in performance, remember this was early 80s . I did have personal knowledge about an incident where a close friend used a Colt Agent with that load and it traveled up a shoulder from 12" from muzzle and lodge in the back, very slightly expanded and did not wreck havoc and the subject was back at work two weeks later.
I would NOT use anything lighter than 124 grains in 9mm or .38/.357 based on my experience and yes todays bullets are far better at short barrel velocity. However weight matters IMHO to break bone and not be deflected.
 
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