Carry your own reloads in your CCW?

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roque5

roque5

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Thank you for reading this and I value your opinion. Quite frankly I trust my own reloads more than any factory loads. I started reloading with a lee hand unit and a hammer to create my own 30.06 and shot deer with them, many ducks and Pheasants fell to my reloads and I won prizes in the IPSC tourneys I would attend. So why shouldn't I feel safer with my own reloads instead of Factory rounds. I know they work, I shoot many every year. As a NRA Range Officer I see guys at the club take out a box of 20 super dooper factory rounds and they cant hit paper with them but thats what they carry.
What dont I understand?
 
roque5 said:
Thank you for reading this and I value your opinion. Quite frankly I trust my own reloads more than any factory loads.... I started reloading .... shot deer with them, many ducks and Pheasants fell to my reloads ....What dont I understand?
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It seems unlikely that the deer or ducks will stick around to testify against you. It's not a ballistics problem. It's an evidetiary one: The Peculiar Problem of Handloads in Self-Defense Shootings.
 
I do, both my 9mm and 45 ACP loads. While I cannot replicate factory QC checks I cannot remember a failure with any of my handloads, in many, many years. I reload a quality 125 gr JHP in my 9mm and it works quite well in my 4, 9mm handguns. My 45 ACP uses a 230 gr. FMJ over a classic load of Bullseye which has worked as a SD round for over century, and it too feeds, fires, and ejects from all my guns chambered for that round. While the "controversy" will continue as long as there are shooters with opinions, my only thought is "show me one case where a shooter was charged with a crime or sued for using handloads" (and not the case Mr Ayoob cites about trying to determine if a person committed suicide or was shot)...
 
mdi said:
....my only thought is "show me one case where a shooter was charged with a crime or sued for using handloads" (and not the case Mr Ayoob cites about trying to determine if a person committed suicide or was shot)...
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As carrying handloads is not a crime, that will be a bit difficult. That said, there are lots of non-criminal acts that are bad ideas.

So, how about this: How about I name a case in which GSR evidence (which might have been excluded had the shooter carried handloads) was used to exonerate the self-defense shooter?

ETA: And my guess is that the case you want excluded is the case of Daniel Bias. Unfortunately, in dealing with the law, you don't get to pick and choose which cases are relevant.
 
I think it might vary from state to state.

You can't dismiss Massad Ayoub on the subject, and he says carry factory ammo only. A friend with many years of experience in law enforcement in California says that the question of handloads vs factory loads will routinely come up at discovery in lawsuits there.

Here in gun friendly Utah, I've read everything our local firearms attorney has written about guns and the law, and he doesn't mention a word about it.

Frankly, I have a hard time keeping track of whether my CCW cartridges are factory or handloads. You might have a hard time establishing that one of my fired rounds was a handload. After all, the bullet is gone and the case is empty. The next one in the magazine may or may not have come from the same source.
 
denton said:
I think it might vary from state to state....
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I'm sure that there is some variation from state to state, but most of the states have adopted similar rules of evidence. The American Bar Association puts together various Model Rules, and states will often either adopt those, or use them as a baseline.
 
Frankly, I have a hard time keeping track of whether my CCW cartridges are factory or handloads. You might have a hard time establishing that one of my fired rounds was a handload. After all, the bullet is gone and the case is empty. The next one in the magazine may or may not have come from the same source.

denton,

True. In a defensive situation, do I throw the commercial "pet rock" or the garden variety pretty rock?
 
I'm curious. Leave guns out of it for a minute.

Let's say I had a home break in and defended myself against the intruder with a store bought baseball bat. Now, substitute the baseball bat with a piece of hickory I cut from a tree and fashioned into a club that looks a lot like a bat. Is the outcome different from a legal standpoint?

Or is simply that the law and common sense don't necessarily need to co-habitat on the same plane. (ya know, I think I may have answered my own question so feel free to disregard ;) )
 
denton said:
I think it might vary from state to state.

You can't dismiss Massad Ayoub on the subject, and he says carry factory ammo only. A friend with many years of experience in law enforcement in California says that the question of handloads vs factory loads will routinely come up at discovery in lawsuits there.

Here in gun friendly Utah, I've read everything our local firearms attorney has written about guns and the law, and he doesn't mention a word about it.

Frankly, I have a hard time keeping track of whether my CCW cartridges are factory or handloads. You might have a hard time establishing that one of my fired rounds was a handload. After all, the bullet is gone and the case is empty. The next one in the magazine may or may not have come from the same source.
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If I were you, I'd get at least a couple of Ayoob's books and see just what he says. He's testified in an aweful lot of shootings and is generally considered one of the best if not expert witnesses on the subject.
 
Nature Boy said:
I'm curious. Leave guns out of it for a minute.

Let's say I had a home break in and defended myself against the intruder with a store bought baseball bat. Now, substitute the baseball bat with a piece of hickory I cut from a tree and fashioned into a club that looks a lot like a bat. Is the outcome different from a legal standpoint?

Or is simply that the law and common sense don't necessarily need to co-habitat on the same plane. (ya know, I think I may have answered my own question so feel free to disregard ;) )
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Yes, the outcome may be very different. But that difference can only be illustrated if I include guns in the comparison.

In your 'baseball bat vs. homemade club' scenario,' the club or bat is unlikely to be destroyed during the encounter. If you then need an expert to recreate the conflict, said expert can get access to the actual weapon to do whatever tests are necessary.

In the event of a shooting, assuming that the shooter's gun and ammo function properly, the ammo is effectively destroyed. The powder is burned, the projectile may or may not be recovered. If you then need an expert to recreate the conflict, the information on loading has to come from somewhere.

Scenario 1: You carried factory ammo and can subpoena the factory's records on loading. The loader, the factory, is a disinterested third party, and it doesn't care about the outcome of the case.

Scenario 2: You carried handloads and want your expert to rely on those. The loader is (potentially) a defendant in a murder case, who is very much interested in the outcome of the case.

Which scenario do you think will get more of a fight out of the prosecutor in terms of letting the evidence in?
higgite said:
IMHO, your problem won't be to justify the origin of the ammo. It'll be to justify having used the ammo. ymmv
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But the origin of the ammo could play a role in determining whether you are found to have been justified.
 
The problem with the multiple references to the Daniel Bias case is that the case has nothing to do with self defense. The only logical conclusion you can draw from that case is that you should not handload any ammo ever because someone might kill them self with it.

How can you be certain your ammo won’t end up in the hands of someone who turns suicidal? That is what happened in his case. Even if you don’t ever carry your reloads for self defense you could end up just like him.

With a suicide the gun has to be within a very close proximity. In a self defense case the gun could be .5”, 5’ or 50’. A lack of GSR doesn’t exclude a valid use of a firearm in self defense.

For all we know the use of reloads could have saved Daniel Bias from being convicted of a more serious crime.
 
Spats McGee said:
Yes, the outcome may be very different. But that difference can only be illustrated if I include guns in the comparison.

In your 'baseball bat vs. homemade club' scenario,' the club or bat is unlikely to be destroyed during the encounter. If you then need an expert to recreate the conflict, said expert can get access to the actual weapon to do whatever tests are necessary.

In the event of a shooting, assuming that the shooter's gun and ammo function properly, the ammo is effectively destroyed. The powder is burned, the projectile may or may not be recovered. If you then need an expert to recreate the conflict, the information on loading has to come from somewhere.

Scenario 1: You carried factory ammo and can subpoena the factory's records on loading. The loader, the factory, is a disinterested third party, and it doesn't care about the outcome of the case.

Scenario 2: You carried handloads and want your expert to rely on those. The loader is (potentially) a defendant in a murder case, who is very much interested in the outcome of the case.

Which scenario do you think will get more of a fight out of the prosecutor in terms of letting the evidence in?

But the origin of the ammo could play a role in determining whether you are found to have been justified.
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Thanks for taking the time to lay that out. It makes sense to me now where as before I was ready to chalk it up to the vagaries of the system.
 
reddog81 said:
The problem with the multiple references to the Daniel Bias case is that the case has nothing to do with self defense. The only logical conclusion you can draw from that case is that you should not handload any ammo ever because someone might kill them self with it.
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Wrong. The rules of evidence remain the same, whether the case is a homicide, Self-defense, negligence, or a contract case.

higgite said:
How so?
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If the bad guy survives & disputes your version of events, then you could need GSR evidence to back your version. If you used handloads, you may not be able to use that evidence.
 
Spats McGee said:
Wrong. The rules of evidence remain the same, whether the case is a homicide, Self-defense, negligence, or a contract case.


If the bad guy survives & disputes your version of events, then you could need GSR evidence to back your version. If you used handloads, you may not be able to use that evidence.
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Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning, but my personal choice is to carry factory ammo anyway, so it's a moot point in my case. Was just curious. This topic has been discussed in the past more than Ford vs Chevy. ;)
 
Spats McGee said:
Wrong. The rules of evidence remain the same, whether the case is a homicide, Self-defense, negligence, or a contract case.


If the bad guy survives & disputes your version of events, then you could need GSR evidence to back your version. If you used handloads, you may not be able to use that evidence.
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But either way the Danial Bias only proves you shouldn’t reload any ammo. There are twice as many suicides in the US every year than there are homicides. If you’re afraid of carrying reloads you should also be just as afraid of those reloads ending up in the hands of someone who might decide to off themself.
 
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