Remove leading with a chore boy

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David Hoback said:
You are aware that some people get a kick out of shooting more powerful loads, yes?
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As my grandfather says, a glutton for punishment.

I enjoy a hard kicker every once in awhile, but much prefer lighter recoil for a full day at the range. That's why the .45-70 is a great round. It can be loaded mild to wild.
 
3Crows said:
So I have heard, I do too in moderation but BB ammo is expensive and I think I have six boxes of the 430 Grain +P that I bought before heading to Alaska a couple of years ago. I ran a box through to make sure the gun would function reliably with the ammo. The 430 grain HMS Bear Load is still plenty strong and I have been working a similar load on my bench. It will be fun enough and a useful hunting result. I will save the BB for trips where lever gun maximum power ammo could be needed.
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I haven't tried the buffalo bore, but I kind of want to now...
 
3Crows said:
No need to punish yourself with Bear Loads. The HMS Cowboy is not a target round, but it is fun to shoot and still thumps good and is a fairly authentic load, 405 grains at 1300 FPS, it will knock a pig over.
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140 years ago, hunters were happily dropping moose, elk, and bear with this load, using black powder cartridges. With a bullet this heavy, a high muzzle velocity is not needed.
I recall an account by a hunter who used an original Sharps cavalry carbine chambered for .50-70 to kill a deer at 50 yards or so. His buddies had been mocking him for hunting with such a useless old gun.
But, with a 425 grain lead bullet at around 1250 FPS the bullet penetrated lengthwise from stem to stern, killing the deer deader than dead.
Just because you can magnum-ize the .45-70 in modern rifles doesn't mean that you need to.
 
Old Stumpy said:
140 years ago, hunters were happily dropping moose, elk, and bear with this load, using black powder cartridges. With a bullet this heavy, a high muzzle velocity is not needed.
I recall an account by a hunter who used an original Sharps cavalry carbine chambered for .50-70 to kill a deer at 50 yards or so. His buddies had been mocking him for hunting with such a useless old gun.
But, with a 425 grain lead bullet at around 1250 FPS the bullet penetrated lengthwise from stem to stern, killing the deer deader than dead.
Just because you can magnum-ize the .45-70 in modern rifles doesn't mean that you need to.
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Valid points. I like my .45-70 for close range work. I doesn't cause a ton of meat damage like an expanding bullet, and still has enough dropping power for anything I will come across.

I haven't looked at ballistics, but I assume by increasing velocity you are helping to flatten the rainbow trajectory a little bit. But is not necessary for short range work.
 
Jbird45 said:
I haven't looked at ballistics, but I assume by increasing velocity you are helping to flatten the rainbow trajectory a little bit. But is not necessary for short range work.
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That's true enough.
A.45-70 going 1350 FPS with a 405 grain bullet at 1350 FPS that is zeroed for 100 yards will strike about 2" high at 50 yards and 3" low at 125 yards. After that it plunges.
But it retains a large portion of its' energy and velocity.
If you were contemplating 200 yard shooting then higher velocity would make sense.
 
Who is it that decides what an individual “needs” as far as a cartridge load strength is concerned? What any of us deems is ac acceptable load strength is solely a personal opinion...Period!

Let’s also keep in mind ballistics. Whatever distance the 405gr @ 1300fps can deliver, raising muzzle velocity will deliver BOTH better accuracy and stopping power at much further distance. Once again, Period!

A statement like: “A 405gr, 2000fps loaf is not needed!”, is an unfair statement.

Now statement such as: “My snowflake tender shoulder & rather Soy Boyish demeanor is unable to handle the Buffalo Bore loads!”, is perfectly acceptable.:rofl: BTW, ultra powerful calibers are NOT my cup o’ tea. I don’t go searching to fire big super magnums to fire. :)
 
The HMS Bear load is a 430 grain hard cast and gas checked, it moves along at 1800-ish (1780 from my GG) FPS with around 3,000+ FPE. That is pretty stout. That would probably go completely through an elephant or a t-rex and it knocks hogs over with authority in the most amusing ways. The BB 430 grain +P (Item 8A Penetrator) is 1880 FPS (Marlin GG) and around 3,400 FPE at nearly twice the price of the HMS BL. The recoil difference is noticeable for that last 100 FPS. If somebody wants to go dear hunting with it, by all means, the deer might be so dead that a cosmic black hole of death may form and suck the deer into it.
 
3Crows said:
The HMS Bear load is a 430 grain hard cast and gas checked, it moves along at 1800-ish (1780 from my GG) FPS with around 3,000+ FPE. That is pretty stout. That would probably go completely through an elephant or a t-rex and it knocks hogs over with authority in the most amusing ways.
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I don't know about elephants or dinosaurs, but I would think that a 430 grain hard cast bullet at that velocity would pass completely through hogs, elk, black bear and moose without expanding at all.
While it no doubt imparts some more shock than a 425 grain / 1350 FPS round, most of its energy would be wasted just plowing into the landscape.
A soft lead bullet or JSP at 1350 FPS would expand and penetrate completely as well but might remain in those animals.
So I think that those animals would be just as dead and nearly as quickly.
The bear loads would be great used on a huge grizzly bear or a large bison no doubt.
 
10mm is the new 45-70! It is rumored the physics was solved by Oppenheimer in his spare time after inventing the atomic bomb so this explains the mystery.

Seriously though, a 45-70 does not need to expand much, a 45 caliber bullet is already larger in diameter than an expanded .270 or .308. Kind of the old 1911 45 Auto vs 9mm argument, they make big holes going in and a .45-70 430 grain with a huge metplate makes a very large wound channel crushing bone and destroying tissue over the five to six feet of penetration it is capable of.

When I got my GG I tried a box of the Remington 405 grain jacketed (safe for all rifles) and it shot well with a solid push recoil, not bad. I tried a box of the Hornady 350 grain FTX and while accurate, the recoil was definitely more of a snap and noticeably more vigorous. The HMS Cowboy 405 grain is mild, more of a long push into the shoulder with authentic smoke, HMS Bear Load, is still a push, just a hard push. The BB is back to a snap, a very energetic and solid snap. My boss and I had been shooting and I pulled out the .45-70 with my 850 FPS reloads and was plinking away, shot a few Cowboy loads too and I loaded the magazine tube full of BB 430 grain HC. I warned him these were going to come back! He is a big guy, easy 350 pounds, he shook like a bowl of jello when that Marlin roared and he went back a full step. Those +P loads mean business.

I had originally set a Nikon African on Warne QR mounts and loved the 1X for rapid both eyes open shooting. Until it knocked my glasses off and broke them (safety rated eye glasses). The Marlin (and the Henry as well), while not lightweight rifles, are still around 8 pounds, most rifles with this level of muzzle energy are a bit more weight. A 45-70 will come back at a fellow if you do not set the rifle solid into the shoulder with BB +P. I use a Burris Scout scope now. I want a .375 Ruger Alaskan with controlled feed, I will put the African on that pussy cat!
 
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3Crows said:
10mm is the new 45-70! It is rumored the physics was solved by Oppenheimer in his spare time after inventing the atomic bomb so this explains the mystery.

Seriously though, a 45-70 does not need to expand much, a 45 caliber bullet is already larger in diameter than an expanded .270 or .308. Kind of old the 1911 45 Auto vs 9mm argument, they make big holes going in and a .45-70 430 grain with a huge metplate makes a very large wound channel crushing bone and destroying tissue over the five to six feet of penetration it is capable of.

When I got my GG I tried a box of the Remington 405 grain jacketed (safe for all rifles) and it shot well with a solid push recoil, not bad. I tried a box of the Hornady 350 grain FTX and while accurate, the recoil was definitely more of a snap and noticeably more vigorous. The HMS Cowboy 405 grain is mild, more of a long push into the shoulder with authentic smoke, HMS Bear Load, is still a push, just a hard push. The BB is back to a snap, a very energetic and solid snap. My boss and I had been shooting and I pulled out the .45-70 with my 850 FPS reloads and was plinking away, shot a few Cowboy loads too and I loaded the magazine tube full of BB 430 grain HC. I warned him these were going to come back! He is a big guy, easy 350 pounds, he shook like a bowl of jello when that Marlin roared and he went back a full step. Those +P loads mean business.

I had originally set a Nikon African on Warne QR mounts and loved the 1X for rapid both eyes open shooting. Until it knocked my glasses off and broke them (safety rated eye glasses). The Marlin (and the Henry as well), while not lightweight rifles, are still around 8 pounds, most rifles with this level of recoil are a bit more weight. A 45-70 will come back at a fellow if you do not set the rifle solid into the shoulder with BB +P. I use a Burris Scout scope now. I want a .375 Ruger Alaskan with controlled feed, I will put the African on that pussy cat!
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I had thought about putting a scope on mine but I have held off. I am getting better with the irons so it's not a necessity at this point.

I have only tried the HSM cowboy and HSM bear loads. I have seen the Remington and Hornady on the shelf but never gave them a try. The HSM bear loads seem to have more than enough power for anything I would run into around here. I'm sure if a black bear didn't like me and I hit him in the chest there's a chance it would come out his rear.

I don't know why I like my .45-70 so much, but it is my favorite rifle to shoot for sure
 
.38 Special said:
This simply isn't the case, at least in terms of accuracy. Increased velocity has nearly nothing to do with accuracy.
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READ what I said before trying to interject a witty remark. Increased velocity absolute will increase accuracy AT A MUCH FURTHER DISTANCE! As the slower bullet weighing 405gr will destabilize BEFORE the 405gr at higher velocity! I was very careful with my wording. You should make certain to understand what was said before trying to rebuke someone.

Agreed?
 
David Hoback said:
READ what I said before trying to interject a witty remark. Increased velocity absolute will increase accuracy AT A MUCH FURTHER DISTANCE! As the slower bullet weighing 405gr will destabilize BEFORE the 405gr at higher velocity! I was very careful with my wording. You should make certain to understand what was said before trying to rebuke someone.

Agreed?
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I'm not a ballistics expert by any means, but wouldn't barrel length and twist rate have a greater impact on bullet stabilization? Velocity helps flatten the trajectory and how fast the bullet gets to the target.
 
Don't worry, copper is softer than steel. I get a wad of chore boy and ram it through a few times, even if there's no leading, scrubs it all out. Store bought "gun cleaning kits" are all gimmicks, all you could ever need is at the hardware store for pennies on the dollar, don't be scared and don't get duped by whizz bang magic cleaners. I haven't used anything labeled as a cleaning device in over a decade and I chew the middle out of targets without a problem.
 
.38 Special said:
For whatever it is worth, the Trapdoor is perfectly capable of stabilizing a 405 grain bullet fired at 1350 FPS at beyond 2000 yards.
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Well, no....it isn’t! But you go ahead and believe as you wish. You were already wrong, and can’t even admit it. So, great track record.
 
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