OP
OP
Howland937
Member
If the suburbs are a hometown of about 4000 people and the nearest Walmart is 20 miles away, then yeah. Except the school owns the only busses around here, so they ain't gonna let me ride.
When things get really weird...
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GBExpat
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Grocery store aisle ... that makes it a little tougher. Quite frankly, in that specific circumstance I do not know, for sure, how I would have responded.
Since I had already taken notice of him I would probably just quietly & firmly tell him to "Back off!" and move along.
I would not, however, surreptitiously open a blade ... in my pocket.
You walked away without creating a ruckus ... gave yourself some important things to ponder ... and then were open enough to share it all with us. Thank you!
I like to flexibly pre-think through such scenarios.
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Howland937
Member
would not, however, surreptitiously open a blade ... in my pocket.
Agree that was probably a poor decision. I can't really even explain why I went that route. Narrow aisles, and when he stopped where he stopped it was at less than arm's length away. Passing that close is unavoidable under the circumstances...
RetiredUSNChief
Member
I'd have my shopping cart between us.
People are weird. People are stupid. People are dangerous.
How much of these qualities, and the exact circumstances of any meeting, plays a large part in how we respond.
It's my opinion (OPINION, mind you) that people who are talking are generally people who aren't taking active hostile actions. Which means you generally have time to improve your posture while figuring out how to navigate to relative safety.
People are weird. People are stupid. People are dangerous.
How much of these qualities, and the exact circumstances of any meeting, plays a large part in how we respond.
It's my opinion (OPINION, mind you) that people who are talking are generally people who aren't taking active hostile actions. Which means you generally have time to improve your posture while figuring out how to navigate to relative safety.
Sounds good, as long as one is not aggressive or overly rude about it
Yes indeed.
JTHunter
Member
If someone approached me and asked if I wanted to die tonight, I most definitely go on "high alert" as the speakers intentions aren't yet clear.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Exactly. Maneuvering to improve one's defensive, and potentially offensive, posture does not automatically mean "make a violent move". In fact, it's often the very opposite of this.
Placing the shopping cart between yourself and another provides a simple impediment which a potential attacker has to overcome, and it accomplished by either moving the cart between, moving yourself around the cart relative to the other person, or both. A simple impediment like this means the potential attacker loses precious time, and the ability to make an easy, clear approach, should he choose to attack.
People make moves like this all the time...or they should be when called for. Step back. Move aside. Move around a stand of fruit. Turn to present a lower profile, or to place yourself in a position to use your "weak side" to fend off while providing your "strong side" both protection and unimpeded ability to draw or otherwise present your weapon.
Simple being more alert to the individual AND your surroundings (situational awareness) is part of this. After all, you can't really be "avoiding" trouble if you're not aware you're about to blindly step into it.
Whatever that means.
BTW, the question was "how", not "if".
Based on the OP, where would seem to be no basis for a reasonable belief that any kind of an attack was imminent.
Yep!!
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Howland937
Member
Correct. The question was "how would you like to die tonight?", which after discussion, was a criticism of my shopping. Without context, and unsure where the emphasis was intended (how=choosing which way, or how=on a scale of 1-10, would you really like to die a lot, or very little)
Regardless of the meaning, the fact someone who doesn't know me would ask a question like that was enough to make me concerned.
It would tend to raise one's eyebrows.
Armored farmer
Member
Again...
Armchair quarterbacking going on here.
The mere possibility that grocery nazi might have seen or heard our @Howland937 slip his hand in his pocket, or heard the sound of a blade being g deployed, might have completely changed his tune.
Any such situation where both parties go home afterwards, was handled perfectly.
Well done.
Armchair quarterbacking going on here.
The mere possibility that grocery nazi might have seen or heard our @Howland937 slip his hand in his pocket, or heard the sound of a blade being g deployed, might have completely changed his tune.
Any such situation where both parties go home afterwards, was handled perfectly.
Well done.
Do not ever assume that when things seem to be over, things were handled "perfectly".
What would have been the justification?
Armored farmer
Member
When he was asked, "do you want to die tonight?".
That won't cut it, in the majority of US jurisdictions.
In most, it would be a serous felony.
Should one perceive that being prepared to produce a weapon might ve advisable before doing so would be lawfully justifiable, one should do so in a manner that cannot be reasonably detected.
There would be no deterrent effect, of course, but it would enable a quicker draw.
I suggest that you avail yourself of Andrew Branca's book, The Law of Self Defense.
Trunk Monkey
member
I'm trying to put myself in the OP's place and I'm having a hard time. I don't really "shop" at Walmart we have our things delivered. When I do shop at Walmart its for things they won't deliver and I'm never looking for enough stuff to need a shopping cart. So, no shopping cart to create a barrier.
Thirty years ago a coworker asked me to give his friend a ride home. Halfway to the friend's house the friend reached over and grabbed my throat and told me "You're going to die today." My coworker picked up a pipe wrench in the backseat and was about to cave in his head. The friend saw it in the rear view and let go of my neck. He sat there and never said another word until we go to his house. Then he got out and walked away I never saw him again, I don't remember ever seeing the coworker again either. Either way I if some random stranger said something like that to me under any circumstances I would take it very seriously and I would be getting ready to defend myself.
The problem with a supermarket is that personal space is normally less than usual and I'm not in control of the space like I am at work but I would still be moving away from some random stranger trying to get within arm's length of me. I certainly wouldn't allow myself to be backed into a corner.
Thirty years ago a coworker asked me to give his friend a ride home. Halfway to the friend's house the friend reached over and grabbed my throat and told me "You're going to die today." My coworker picked up a pipe wrench in the backseat and was about to cave in his head. The friend saw it in the rear view and let go of my neck. He sat there and never said another word until we go to his house. Then he got out and walked away I never saw him again, I don't remember ever seeing the coworker again either. Either way I if some random stranger said something like that to me under any circumstances I would take it very seriously and I would be getting ready to defend myself.
The problem with a supermarket is that personal space is normally less than usual and I'm not in control of the space like I am at work but I would still be moving away from some random stranger trying to get within arm's length of me. I certainly wouldn't allow myself to be backed into a corner.
Good.
OP
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Howland937
Member
Wasn't Walmart...it's a small local grocer in the small town I live about 6 miles outside of that, short of driving 20 miles to Walmart, is the only place to get actual groceries. At the time I didn't feel concern as the individual approached though I did note what I considered strangeness regarding his attire previously. I politely moved my cart aside as far as was possible to allow him to pass, except he didn't. My attempt at courtesy caused me to further confine myself since he was then able to be right beside me instead of in front or behind. My right side was within a few inches of the shelves and my left side was toward him, with a couple of feet separating us. That was of my own doing, but it's not a situation I'd dealt with before, especially given the question posed to me. So, the purpose of the OP was to seek feedback, criticism, insight, etc...on how things could have been better handled.
Armored farmer
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RetiredUSNChief
Member
Seeing as how this went down the path I kinda thought it would:
How anybody reacts to such an event is a summary of the totality of the circumstances and the individuals involved. What we have here is a very narrow posting of circumstances which, of necessity, do not include such things as tone of speech, posture, body language, and any number of other cues we might be exposed to if we were actually on the scene.
Therefore, you cannot say that any given response, especially one which might involve the use of force (deadly or not), is truly warranted. Any response MUST include caveats, then.
Words screamed in the heat of passion, even clearly stated as "I'LL KILL YOU!" may not actually warrant an immediate physical response at all. Kids, for example, scream at each other all the time...anybody who has ever had toddlers/young kids knows they can be VERY emotionally heated in their screaming threats. Yet we don't jump on the "SHOOT 'EM NOW!" bandwagon. Likewise older, larger people. Do they have the means at hand? Are they actually capable of presenting a serious bodily threat? Is there time/distance to attempt a less violent result?
A hippy-type dude approaching me in a grocery aisle asking me this question while eyeing what's in my cart would draw a different response from me than a 6'4" angry scar-faced dude holding a length of pipe in a threatening manner.
What do you do?
The answer is "react appropriately for the circumstances".
That SOUNDS like a cop-out. But it's really not. Because you can be assured that if you end up in court over the result, others WILL be judging your response to determine whether or not it was actually "appropriate for the circumstances" in the eyes of the law.
How anybody reacts to such an event is a summary of the totality of the circumstances and the individuals involved. What we have here is a very narrow posting of circumstances which, of necessity, do not include such things as tone of speech, posture, body language, and any number of other cues we might be exposed to if we were actually on the scene.
Therefore, you cannot say that any given response, especially one which might involve the use of force (deadly or not), is truly warranted. Any response MUST include caveats, then.
Words screamed in the heat of passion, even clearly stated as "I'LL KILL YOU!" may not actually warrant an immediate physical response at all. Kids, for example, scream at each other all the time...anybody who has ever had toddlers/young kids knows they can be VERY emotionally heated in their screaming threats. Yet we don't jump on the "SHOOT 'EM NOW!" bandwagon. Likewise older, larger people. Do they have the means at hand? Are they actually capable of presenting a serious bodily threat? Is there time/distance to attempt a less violent result?
A hippy-type dude approaching me in a grocery aisle asking me this question while eyeing what's in my cart would draw a different response from me than a 6'4" angry scar-faced dude holding a length of pipe in a threatening manner.
What do you do?
The answer is "react appropriately for the circumstances".
That SOUNDS like a cop-out. But it's really not. Because you can be assured that if you end up in court over the result, others WILL be judging your response to determine whether or not it was actually "appropriate for the circumstances" in the eyes of the law.
He did not say.
I was referring to this:
If that was what did happen, there were serious unnecessary legal and physical risks. Had the other guy reasonably believed that the faced imminent danger from a weapon...guess who would have been justified in the immediate use of deadly force?
That's on the top of the obvious risk of an assault or weapons charge, had the fellow turned to leave..
And of the risk of cutting oneself and bleeding out.
You run into whackos all the time, unless you are a hermit (in which case you are the whacko). Most are harmless. When one asks you about you dying, that should bring up your level of preparedness, especially in an area where it is hard to escape. His appearance is not entirely alarming in the current environment. A hand on a concealed weapon aids in response time, and is not threatening the other person. The OP talked his way out of what appeared to be a questionable situation, which is a good thing. I'm just impressed that he could open a knife in his pocket without cutting his pants or himself.
OP
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Howland937
Member
It's actually not terribly difficult. With it toward the front of my pocket, and lightweight, summertime clothing I can flip the blade open inside my pocket without putting any part of my hand in my pocket. Deep, empty pocket helps. But I didn't know I could do it until I did it.
I often wonder how many people who carry knives as weapons have the skill , and the knowledge of the human body to use them to effect timely physical stops without using more force than is reasonably necessary, and have the ability to document that they had possessed that knowledge before having used a knife as a weapon..
I do not carry a knife, but if I did, I would certainly avail myself of the kind of training that Michael Janich provides
I do not carry a knife, but if I did, I would certainly avail myself of the kind of training that Michael Janich provides
OP
OP
Howland937
Member
I'd never considered the knife I carry as a defense option (in that I don't carry it for defense) so much as a useful tool to have on hand. It gets used quite often at work and around the house.
As far as training, the bits I did have were long ago. We used sticks mostly...some knives, along with various items one might find lying around. The one thing that really still sticks with me is that to this day, I always take a glance at my surroundings to see what I could pick up to defend myself with if needed.
As far as training, the bits I did have were long ago. We used sticks mostly...some knives, along with various items one might find lying around. The one thing that really still sticks with me is that to this day, I always take a glance at my surroundings to see what I could pick up to defend myself with if needed.
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Armored farmer
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Extremely nice ccw hardware you have there.
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