Slingshot that slide.

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Electricmo said:
I have always been taught to slingshot my slides from slide stop position. Reason was when using the slide stop for release is wearing the stop itself and slide also. Shaving metal everytime you push the slide stop down. Bersas have wear issues on slide stop when not slingshotting. Have been told that’s why it is called a slide stop and not release. Anyone else got opinions? I’m not saying I’m right. Just my practice.
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Oddly enough, it was a Bersa that got me in the habit of slingshotting the slide. Had the same issue on the Bersa with wear on the slide stop notch. The habit has stuck with me ever since. I think the slingshot is a better habit because it doesn’t take as much fine motor movement as pushing the slide stop lever down.
 
mxl said:
Bravo--For some reason I'm thinking GSG added a steel pin at the rear of the slide stop opening [maybe just the later production models] to prevent excessive wear. Am I wrong?
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Yes GSG did add a steel pin in later slides for that exact reason.
 
prefer sling shoting as I'm a southpaw shooter and have many right hand only guns.

I learned how to use slide stops with my left hand, but easier and better slinging the slide.
 
entropy was correct about the Israeli military---also the Israeli Carry includes carrying with an empty chamber so anytime the weapon is drawn, the user must
rack (slingshot) the slide. Easier to train just one method.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
EVERYONE else has opinions.

I slingshot. YMM(and very likely does)V
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Hey, either way, the fact you know the difference, seems to put you way ahead.

A lot of people just look at you like you have three heads if you ask the question. :p
 
Trunk Monkey said:
EVERYONE else has opinions.

I slingshot because that's how I was taught. YMM(and very likely does)V
Click to expand...

I suspect that's the main reason a lot of people want to use the slide release instead of slingshot. They most likely learned on M1911's and/or the 92FS/M9, both of which have nice big slide releases. That doesn't make sense with the new polymer pistols with are designed with an eye towards concealed carry and try to keep such things as slide stops and take down levers as close to the body of the gun as possible.
 
murf said:
. pushing the center of mass up and out reduces muzzle flip
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No. It does not. Simple physics apply here, because by moving the slide up and out you are creating a longer lever arm for the recoil to work against the wrist (not to mention the effect of a lighter gun having less mass and mass minimizes recoil). The difference is largely in technology, not material or weight. Locked breech pistols kick a lot softer than blowback of the same basic construction. Many modern poly pistols shoot softer than their older steel or alloy framed ancestors. Modern locked breech pistols typically have a tilting barrel setup where the recoil of the round drives the slide rearward bringing with it the barrel for a short distance so that it can unlock and move down to allow the slide to pass. That downward camming motion I believe alters the feel of recoil by redirecting the energy during recoil driving it down into the palm of the hand to an extent. Also, slides are typically lighter than they used to be so moving mass is reduced which also acts like a slide hammer in your hand as it slams into the slide stops or frame. Furthermore there are guns being brought to market specifically with a low bore axis design which has been shown to significantly reduce felt recoil. Grip shape, replaceable back straps, molded designs creating shapes too expensive or difficult to make in previous pistols where it was a steel frame and wooden grip panel.

I agree with your assessment that modern guns kick less, but I don’t agree with your reasoning. There are a lot of things playing into it.
 
WestKentucky said:
Locked breech pistols kick a lot softer than blowback of the same basic construction.
Click to expand...
most current 9mm, 40 s&w, 45acp, etc. pistols are of the locked breech design. as such, i am comparing two locked breech type pistols of different construction (specifically the frame material (steel vs. poly)) and of different weights.

using the same load (equal force applied to the pistols), the lighter poly frame gun will recoil more due to the lighter weight, but the muzzles will rise (assuming equal barrel/slide lengths and weights) at a similar rates due to more mass of the poly pistol being farther away from the pivot point of said pistol. this is the angular momentum part of the total recoil force(muzzle flip). the other part of the total force is applied straight back into the shooters hand will be greater for the poly pistol due to its lesser weight. so total recoil force applied to the poly pistol is still greater than that applied to the steel pistol due to weight difference.

a quick example of angular momentum is to hold your arm straight out and raise it above your head (keep it straight). now put a book in your hand and do the same thing. either the latter motion will be slower, or you will have to use more energy (force) to raise the book at the same speed. since the two pistols are using the same amount of energy (force) the arm with the book will rise more slowly (muzzle flip is less).

anyway, that is the explanation of my "muzzle flip" comment and why poly pistols don't seem to kick any harder than their steel frame counterparts.

murf
 
Manufacturers recommend different things when it comes to this subject.

I took my SS80 80% (G43) that I built to the range today to test fire and sight in. I used the slide release and sling shot method just for giggles. No difference in how it loaded the first round with either method.

Do as the manufacture suggests and/or how you train. There really in no right or wrong answer here . Unless you have a pistol that will get messed up from using the release such as the older GSG 1911 22lr conversion slides.
 
murf said:
most current 9mm, 40 s&w, 45acp, etc. pistols are of the locked breech design. as such, i am comparing two locked breech type pistols of different construction (specifically the frame material (steel vs. poly)) and of different weights.

using the same load (equal force applied to the pistols), the lighter poly frame gun will recoil more due to the lighter weight, but the muzzles will rise (assuming equal barrel/slide lengths and weights) at a similar rates due to more mass of the poly pistol being farther away from the pivot point of said pistol. this is the angular momentum part of the total recoil force(muzzle flip). the other part of the total force is applied straight back into the shooters hand will be greater for the poly pistol due to its lesser weight. so total recoil force applied to the poly pistol is still greater than that applied to the steel pistol due to weight difference.

a quick example of angular momentum is to hold your arm straight out and raise it above your head (keep it straight). now put a book in your hand and do the same thing. either the latter motion will be slower, or you will have to use more energy (force) to raise the book at the same speed. since the two pistols are using the same amount of energy (force) the arm with the book will rise more slowly (muzzle flip is less).

anyway, that is the explanation of my "muzzle flip" comment and why poly pistols don't seem to kick any harder than their steel frame counterparts.

murf
Click to expand...
Your explanation makes sense, and the physics are there to explain part of it. Then again physics explains what I was going after as well. Long story short, there’s a lot at play that changes what we feel and what actually happens in those milliseconds. Modern designs seem to mitigate both recoil and flip better than older designs regardless of material construction.

What is interesting to add to this conversation is the way that recoil feels from a solid action. Example being the 40sw revolver I had for a while. At the time I also had a couple 40sw poly pistols and got the revolver on a whim cheap, used, and from a desperate seller. Shooting the 40sw in the poly pistols was just like a lot of people gripe about, snappy, unpleasant, etc... generally not good adjectives. Shooting the same rounds in the Taurus 405 was a breeze. It seems that a lot of the felt recoil comes from slide motion. I always thought the phenomenon that I was experiencing was perhaps a duration thing to where the revolver popped my palm and was done whereas the semiautos had the initial pop of recoil followed by a (comparably) slow and steady action where I felt much more motion. I despised the semiautos and they went away, I traded the 405 off to get away from 40sw and I miss the gun to this day.there is absolutely something at play in the slide. I wish it were possible to lock the slide on some pistols and see how they behave as a manual action as opposed to a semiauto.
 
This may not be a complete list, but it's what I can think of now.

Reasons to slingshot:
1. The slide comes back to the rear slightly farther than when the slide stop/release is used, providing slightly more spring force to drive the slide forward. I've actually encountered a situation where a gun was so dirty that it wouldn't feed the first round from a mag using the slide release but would work every time when the slingshot method was used.
2. It works on just about all guns. There are some guns out there (Walther PP/PPK/PPKS, CZ52, etc.) that will lock open on an empty mag but don't have an external slide stop/release. Slingshotting is a universal technique that works on just about everything.
3. It's a gross motor skill while operating a slide stop/slide release is a fine motor skill. Don't know how much to make of this, but some feel like it's important.
4. On SOME guns (absolutely not all guns, or even most guns), repeated use of the slide stop/release to drop the slide can cause wear to the slide and possibly eventual failure.
5. On SOME guns (absolutely not all guns, or even most guns), it can be difficult to drop the slide using a slide stop/release. I've run into a few guns where the force required to operate the slide stop/release is very high and others where the slide stop/release is very low profile and difficult to get purchase on. In either of those cases, using the slide stop/release probably wouldn't be a great idea.

Reasons to drop the slide using the slide stop/release:
1. It's usually faster.
2. It is simple and can be more foolproof. There is some technique required to slingshot a slide and doing it wrong can cause a malfunction, but pushing on the slide release is dead simple. At least one manufacturer discourages using the slingshot technique and actually recommends the slide stop/release technique because they feel it's a more sure way to get the gun back into battery.
3. It is a one-handed operation. An injury or disability could make it impossible to slingshot a slide and while there are methods for one-handed racking, they are usually not quite as reliable as either normal slingshotting or using the slide stop/release.

Additional thoughts:
It's a mistake to look at the lists and say something like: "OK, 3 for slide stop/release, 5 for slingshot--an obvious win for slingshot!" The key is which ones apply in your situation. For example, if your only self-defense gun is a Beretta 92, then 2, 4 and 5 on the 'slingshot' list don't apply to you.

Not all of the listed reasons have the same level of importance. Reason one on the slingshot list, for example, is not likely to be a factor except in unusual/extreme circumstances. Some people don't give any credence at all to reason three on the slingshot list since reloading involves pushing a magazine release which is also a fine motor skill and yet people routinely manage it with no problem.

The point is that, in spite of the fact that the general problem is pretty well defined and understood, different people are likely to make different decisions due to differing circumstances. A guy who has several self-defense guns, one of which is a Walther PPK, might be predisposed to slingshot because it works for everything he uses. Another person could look at all the same factors and come to a different solution because he has a disability of his weak hand that makes slingshotting difficult.
 
OP's question although along the same lines, reminded me of this video with Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn regarding abuse on dropping slide on an empty gun.

 
murf said:
most current 9mm, 40 s&w, 45acp, etc. pistols are of the locked breech design. as such, i am comparing two locked breech type pistols of different construction (specifically the frame material (steel vs. poly)) and of different weights.

using the same load (equal force applied to the pistols), the lighter poly frame gun will recoil more due to the lighter weight, but the muzzles will rise (assuming equal barrel/slide lengths and weights) at a similar rates due to more mass of the poly pistol being farther away from the pivot point of said pistol. this is the angular momentum part of the total recoil force(muzzle flip). the other part of the total force is applied straight back into the shooters hand will be greater for the poly pistol due to its lesser weight. so total recoil force applied to the poly pistol is still greater than that applied to the steel pistol due to weight difference.

a quick example of angular momentum is to hold your arm straight out and raise it above your head (keep it straight). now put a book in your hand and do the same thing. either the latter motion will be slower, or you will have to use more energy (force) to raise the book at the same speed. since the two pistols are using the same amount of energy (force) the arm with the book will rise more slowly (muzzle flip is less).

anyway, that is the explanation of my "muzzle flip" comment and why poly pistols don't seem to kick any harder than their steel frame counterparts.

murf
Click to expand...

Except that the slide is no lighter in the steel gun. What you say might be true if the overall weight of the two guns were the same with a larger portion of the overall mass distributed in the slide of the poly framed gun. But the reality of angular momentum is that, assuming similar geometry, it takes more force to rotate a heavier object about a point than a lighter object. This remains true even if that point is at the center of mass.

In your example, there is a book in your hand with both "guns", but with the steel gun, you've also set a full beer in the crook of your elbow. Now which arm is harder to lift?
 
Shot my LC9s in a BUG match.
Not only did I have to yank the slide, the magazines would neither drop free nor insert easily.
I had loaned my G43 to a friend who just motored on as usual.
 
I use slide stop levers if available and I get lock back. A lot of current pistols the slide stop lever is located where my thumb wants to be and I don’t get slide lock, so I sling shot more than I would prefer. I’m slowly but surely getting rid of any pistol that I can get more than the tip of my thumb on the slide stop lever.

An observation I will make on pistols that can suffer damage from using slide stop levers: why would anyone buy a hunk of trash like that? Seriously whether you plan to use it no not, if the gun in question is going to suffer a slide or slide stop lever failure in the event of regular use of the slide stop we have two problems that are deal breakers:

1.) The slide, slide stop lever, or both are made from poor quality alloys that are not properly heat treated and are so soft that they won’t hold basic dimensions. So if those parts are garbage, what other parts on the gun are also cheap trash?

2.) The designer of the gun wasn’t smart enough or diligent enough to design a basic parts interface that doesn’t eat itself, or the manufacturer is too cheap or incompetent to manufacture an interface that will last. Again if they can’t get that right, what else is sub par?

Maybe it’s a combination of both 1and 2. Either way this kind of thing should have the klaxon in your head sounding off on that blaster, and you politely declining to buy it. We simply don’t knowingly buy guns that don’t work right or hold up to normal use, it’s a bad idea. All of us work too hard to put up with junky guns that can’t get a simple slide stop to work right and continue to do so.
 
Jim Watson said:
Shot my LC9s in a BUG match.
Not only did I have to yank the slide, the magazines would neither drop free nor insert easily.
I had loaned my G43 to a friend who just motored on as usual.
Click to expand...

I'm actually very happy with my LC9. It's a very accurate gun for its size. I've never had a problem with magazines. I don't think I've ever used the slide lock on it as a slide release. So I never noticed the problem till today.
 
We simply don’t knowingly buy guns that don’t work right or hold up to normal use, it’s a bad idea.
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The problem with this argument is the assumption that every buyer/user gets to come up with their own definition for normal use. If, for example, the manufacturer says that the part is a slide stop, not a release, and should only be used to lock the slide open, not to release the slide, then the gun does hold up to "normal use" because "normal use" doesn't include using the slide stop as a release.

This is the same argument as saying that a gun that can't be dryfired is garbage because it won't hold up to normal use. If the manufacturer says that dryfiring is not normal use, then argument doesn't hold water. Or saying that a gun where the slide can't be dropped on an empty chamber is garbage because it won't hold up to normal use. If the maker says that dropping the slide on an empty chamber is abuse, then the argument doesn't work.

I agree that a gun that won't hold up to normal use is garbage. It's just not true that each buyer gets to come up with their own definition for "normal use", nor is it true that the term "normal use" is defined exactly the same for every gun on the market.
 
If a "slide stop" weren't intended to be released by thumb, then the feature wouldn't have been designed with that option in mind.

How many manufacturer manuals out there specifically say how you're "supposed" to release the slide in a particular way like this?

As an engineer, I can make a great many statements and justify them under the guise of "good engineering practice". But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the only way something is designed to operate.

A light switch, for example, will last a lot longer if you simply flip it on and leave it on, not cycle it on and off several times a day.

If the routine use of a firearm, otherwise designed to last a great many years cycling literally tens of thousands of rounds through it under much harsher cyclic stresses, has a problem with a part wearing significantly under the conditions cited, then I submit there is a manufacturing/design flaw at issue rather than an operator issue.

Operate the slide stop how you wish, but don't confuse personal preference, or even "good engineering practice", with "this is the only way it should be done".
 
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