Why stretch the limits

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I see nothing wrong with running a load to the max. Some I even go over but all the time looking for warning signs. One of the tools that has been a big help is a chronograph. I use it all the time in load development.

In cases where I have gone over max loads it was because the chronograph showed a load going 200 fps under what it should be, all things being equal. I've found this happens with Varget mostly. Actually I've never had it happen with any other powder. This is one of the reasons when buying a new container of Varget I rework every load that uses it.

If you're content shooting a load at the midpoint of the charge more power to you. But I have seen many times where someone complains about a load key holing and it turns out they are below a minimum charge. These people should not be reloading.
 
I don't really agree with the car analogy. When people hotrod a car they usually modify parts and change out equipment. This is not what's happening with max+ reloads. Rather than adding new parts to get performance, this is much more akin to simply redlining the stock configuration to see what can be done. Driving with the pedal to the floor on the freeway then taking the offramp from the left lanes might be okay, it might not - and when not it was completely foreseeable and nobody gets surprised at the outcome. Same goes for adding powder and pushing the pressure. You aren't exactly adding metal to the lugs or beefing up the chamber walls. You are simply saying "don't worry, we've made this corner before."
No, it's not a mechanical analogy, but a logical one. The reasons people hotrod cars and hotrod reloads can be for the same reason, to see how far they can push the limits. "can I get just a little more speed/power without breaking it?"
 
I don't really agree with the car analogy. When people hotrod a car they usually modify parts and change out equipment. This is not what's happening with max+ reloads.

If you have never destroyed a part on a hotrod, I question if it was actually a hotrod.

It’s a chicken and egg conversation at that point. Go until it blows up and repeat, is what it often comes to. Unless your racing a spec class where all the engines are sealed.

Recently I have been working on a number of 2020 GT 500’s that come from the factory with 760hp. One actually made over 1100 hp to the rear wheels, before a piston gave away. Now it’s going to get another point of compression (only 9.5:1 factory) and see what gives next...
 
I agree with you on most of your post. Most of the time, I believe if you're hotrodding something, it's time to step up to the next level.

However I do think the .45 Colt is an excpetion.
The cartridge was developed when guns couldn't handle modern magnum pressures.
In revolvers like Ruger, Magnum Research, Colt Anaconda, Freedom Arms and maybe a couple others, they are basically guns that were built for modern .44 magnum type loads, so loading them to modern .44 magnum pressures is not really pushing it at all, but is in fact perfectly safe.

Obviously if you own original SAA revolvers or clones, it's not a good idea to have that ammo laying around if it's not very well marked.

But other than that, I agree.

That is a very good point. Especially when it comes to revolvers, there are a lot of older cartridges and a lot of newer guns. Things like the .38 and .44 Specials can be driven well past their original specifications even in guns like the SAA - let alone Freedom Arms!

I suppose my prior post made a big old liar out of me, considering that my most-used handgun load is a .44 Special loaded to 200 fps beyond factory specification. And I jumped onto the hot-rodded .45 Colt bandwagon way back when that was still considered questionable, if not outright stupid.

So I think what I mean to say is not that I never exceed SAAMI specs, but rather that I stick with what is known and safe and no longer experiment on my own. In other words, I'm happy to use the "Skeeter" load in the .44 Special, but I am no longer that teenaged dumbass who kept adding powder to the .357 because "the cases are only a little hard to extract".
 
45colt like 454,
in my case, i bought a ruger blackhawk in 45 colt as a sidearm on my elk hunts. the 454 casull revolver would work but is too heavy and too expensive compared to the 37 ounce and $299 blackhawk. my "ruger only" load for the blackhawk is a 325 grain lbt style bullet over twentysomething grains of h110; muzzle velocity @ 1275 fps. the dual purpose light load is a 265 grain lswc bullet over ? grains of blue dot @ 1200 fps.

i did the same with my glock 30 and turned it into a 45 super. i wanted my defense load to be a 230 grain xtp @ 1000 fps. i could have bought a glock 29 and used a lighter bullet, but already had the 45 acp glock.

ymmv,

murf
 
I run 44 close to max. If I didn't want it close to max I'd use a 44 special. The only gun I've ran over max is 10mm. And that was just to get it up to the original 200gr at 1200fps which was over max in some books. Not by much but it was over. I worked up. Fired thousands. Never had a problem.
 
So I think what I mean to say is not that I never exceed SAAMI specs, but rather that I stick with what is known and safe and no longer experiment on my own.

Agreed 100%.
I do not have the know how or the equipment to test parameters or pressure limits.
I load the .45 Colt substantially heavier than the original loading, but there is published data for all of my loads.
I let the folks with the know how and hundreds of thousands of dollars in testing equipment sort out the details.
 
I agree with the posters that someone loading to the published max is not pushing the limits assuming that particular cartridge/firearm is not showing pressure signs. Anecdotally, I would think the published loads are not on the ragged edge given that legal is involved in almost any public communication by a corporation. If you choose to exceed that, you are taking a chance that I, so far, have chosen not to.do. I have found accurate loads that are generally well below maximum, but not always. I hope that those that are pushing the limits are wise enough and attentive enough to draw the line before a catastrophe, but you never know who is on the bench next to you.

Regards,

Kris
 
Anecdotally, I would think the published loads are not on the ragged edge given that legal is involved in almost any public communication by a corporation.

Many loads do, in fact, run right up to the pressure limit. Check out Western's load data. Look at Lyman's data.

I suspect the lawyer thing might be a myth. You don't need a law degree to say "don't exceed SAAMI standards." People at all levels of the company understand firearms and ammunition. They know they shouldn't exceed SAAMI limits. They don't have law degrees.

The whole purpose of SAAMI is to establish standards that all companies can follow in their ammunition development. The limits are established and are proven safe. That's their purpose - to establish a limit that will be safe for everything. I understand that, and I don't have a law degree. Are there other people reading this who understand "don't exceed SAAMI standards" is a good idea? How many of you don't have a law degree?

Guy Neill, who worked in the industry, notes that the CYA factor was built into the SAAMI specs. Don't exceed that and you're safe. You can see his comments in the link below, the 4th post.

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/41041-44-magnum-they-cant-all-be-right/
 
There are some real SAAMI disconnects WRT rifle cartridges that end in 57mm and 64mm vs CIP specs. Would I possibly conjure up a load that matches CIP factory ammunition in such cartridges exceeding SAAMI limits, to use in my bolt action rifles manufactured post-WWII primarily for the European commercial market but also were sold in the USA and other countries & continents, such as Africa? You bet I plan to. SAAMI isn't the global end-all, neither is CIP. You think there's a myth regarding legal liabilities in the US for SAAMI vs CIP for those differences? Not so mythical.

Prvi Partizan specifically has different cartridge performance data for their 8X57mmJS ammunition for the US and I guess probably North America for meeting SAAMI specs vs for sale elsewhere meeting CIP specs. Comparison of Federal 7X57mm cartridge energy levels to Norma factory ammunition, or Remington 7X64mm Brenneke load energy vs Norma and Geco 7X64mm factory ammunition.

One thing I see that's a huge difference is CIP specs have force of law in the countries in Europe that manufacture factory ammunition to CIP specs. SAAMI is a voluntary organization with AFAIK no force of law but high risk of tort with factory ammunition not manufactured in accordance with SAAMI specifications in the US and probably the rest of North America. The lawyer layer is close to the surface with SAAMI.
 
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You think there's a myth regarding legal liabilities in the US for SAAMI vs CIP for those differences? Not so mythical.

I hope that's not directed to me because I didn't say anything about that.
 
I hope that's not directed to me because I didn't say anything about that.
I didn't mention any individuals, why are you predisposed to thinkin that was the case? Would you prefer y'all or all y'all if the plural "you" makes you hope it wasn't directed at you specifically and individually?

Here's some additional simple facts, the 2016 Prvi Partizan catalog was the last one I saw the seperate load data for CIP specs sales vs SAAMI specs sales. A colleague in Croatia has mentioned rumblings about Prvi Partizan rumored to have been considering potentially standardizing to only manufacture 8X57mmJS ammunition to SAAMI specs as simplification before the pandemic pandemonium pretty much shut down a lot of trade.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw2_9_Sz7MCIswLcZjXHr3Ok
 
I suspect the lawyer thing might be a myth. You don't need a law degree to say "don't exceed SAAMI standards." People at all levels of the company understand firearms and ammunition. They know they shouldn't exceed SAAMI limits. They don't have law degrees.
Agreed.
 
Hand loaders have complete control over every aspect of our creation and development of safe, reliable ammunition is the goal. Why so often do I see people chasing maximum loads. There are reasons like the competitor trying for that last bit of edge in a long range event. More often I see people trying to make 45colt like 454, and a 45/70 like a 458 mag. Recently someone was asking about hotroding a 32/20 for hunting deer. Why not just choose a more appropriate cartridge for the goal.

When I was younger, I wanted the maximum of everything. My brother and I, loading for his S&W .41MAG, push loads beyond reasonable published data, convincing ourselves the pistol liked it. We wound up wearing it out... he still has it, but it needs a trip back to the Mothership for some work. Same-same with heavy .45-70 loads when I had my Browning 1886.

These days... and, now, with the Internet... I cringe when I see what some people are doing, or what they are trying to do. Granted, in my 35 years of reloading, I've had some... uh... 'issues' with some of my handloads, some even of my own making. I also, even now, look past what the firearm or load is telling me, because I wanted a different result... but in the end, the facts are the facts.

One of my big axioms is 'let the tool do the work.' That extends to firearms and handloading as well... don't try to use a 1/4" ratchet to break a wheel lugnut, and if you want Magnum power... go buy a Magnum, don't hotrod your poor .45 Colt.
 
Many loads do, in fact, run right up to the pressure limit. Check out Western's load data. Look at Lyman's data.

I suspect the lawyer thing might be a myth. You don't need a law degree to say "don't exceed SAAMI standards." People at all levels of the company understand firearms and ammunition. They know they shouldn't exceed SAAMI limits. They don't have law degrees.

The whole purpose of SAAMI is to establish standards that all companies can follow in their ammunition development. The limits are established and are proven safe. That's their purpose - to establish a limit that will be safe for everything. I understand that, and I don't have a law degree. Are there other people reading this who understand "don't exceed SAAMI standards" is a good idea? How many of you don't have a law degree?

Guy Neill, who worked in the industry, notes that the CYA factor was built into the SAAMI specs. Don't exceed that and you're safe. You can see his comments in the link below, the 4th post.

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/41041-44-magnum-they-cant-all-be-right/

FXVR5, if I understand your point correctly, I think we are on the same page. If the CYA factor is built into SAAMI specs according to an industry source, then that appears to indicate SAAMI max is not on the ragged edge. Whether this is the result of legal, engineering or whatever doesn't really matter. Pushing to SAAMI max (assuming no other indications of pressure) means that you are still in a "safe" zone.

I appreciate your attempt to educate, but I am in no way encouraging anyone to exceed published data and hope that was clear in my post. I understand the purpose of the SAAMI specs and would not suggest that you need a law degree to understand the risk of exceeding tested maximums. I choose not to exceed max published data and rarely go to max loads when trying to identify an accurate load.

Regards,

Kris
 
I tend to overbuy with regards to firearms. I can always download my ammo. I seek accuracy with a fast target reacqusition as most important. Hot rodding something is not conductive to my goals I feel. I usually find that the first (lowest) accuracy node is the widest and therefore more forgiving so why push things. I had a S&W 500 revolver for a while and sold it for a 454. I shoot hot 45 Colt loads in it now, just did not need quite the amount of punishment the 500 took to be accurate. To each their own.
 
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I tend to overbuy with regards to firearms. I can always download my ammo. I seek accuracy with a fast target reacqusition as most important. Hot rodding something is not conductive to my goals I feel. I usually find that the first (lowest) accuracy node is the widest and therefore more forgiving so why push things. I had a S&W 500 revolver for a while and sold it for a 454. I shoot hot 45 Colt loads in it now, just did not need quite the amount of punishment the 500 took to be accurate. To each their own.
This is a safe practice that I do and feel is hugely common. The hot 38 in a 357 all the time. If all the brass I found at the range was 357 I would not have the same practice but that's just not the reality of the situation.
 
Poking around here in the annals of THR knowledge, I came across this gem that exactly describes the threat of tort as the main compliance force WRT SAAMI standards, while CIP standards as mentioned have force of law in countries using CIP standards.

It's found in the article at this address

https://loaddata.com/Article/BenchTopics/SAAMI-90-Years-of-Setting-Standards/502

Which is where one arrives when following this link

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-what-saami-is-and-does.827403/#post-10661779

A part of this section of THR

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/reloading-library-of-wisdom.649184/

And spells out, in part

"Sometimes much is made of the fact that CIP standards bear the force of law while SAAMI standards are voluntary, but the threat of liability lawsuits lends considerable impetus to voluntary compliance."

Here we see the force of risk of lawsuit is cited as the "hammer" for maintaining compliance with SAAMI standards, as I posted earlier, are considerably less energetic in some cartridges that end in X57mm and 64mm than CIP standards that hold force of law in countries using those standards.

Now, using the example of the 8X57mmJS cartridge just as I did with the 2016 Prvi Partizan catalog, here's photos from a hardcopy of the Accurate Smokeless Powders Loading Guide Number Two manual.

First up is load data within SAAMI standards, and the rationale for this set of SAAMI standards.

20201016_032648.jpg

Get this: SAAMI standards are based on being able to fire a cartridge with bullet diameter. 323" SAFELY in a firearm barreled for .318" diameter bullets AS WELL AS .323" diameter bullets - as long as the load is within the SAAMI pressure standard of 35,000 PSI. Io_O I'll tell you right now I don't care to fire a cartridge with a .323" diameter bullet in a firearm barreled for. 318" bullets PERIOD, and how in the world was that cartridge pressure determined by SAAMI as safe for doing so in the first place?

For comparison here's the alternate set of 8X57mmJS load data well outside SAAMI standards in energy, but based on using cartridges loaded with .323" diameter bullets ONLY in firearms barreled for .323" diameter bullets.

20201016_032757.jpg

Now is it clear that my plans to exceed SAAMI standards when I hand load ammunition for various cartridges that end in 57mm or 64mm is based on using bullets of the same diameter the firearm(s) I will use them in are barreled for yet not exceeding CIP standards, or showing signs of excessive pressure in that specific firearm, using standards that have force of law, just not USA law, (which SAAMI standards don't have in the USA either).

I don't need to be a lawyer in order NOT to choose to fire cartridges loaded with .323" diameter bullets in a firearm barreled for. 318" bullets - a difference of .005" - but the SAAMI standards rationale is to limit the cartridge pressure to a level where I can supposedly do SAFELY? How many times?

The implication is the average US shooter needs to be protected against shooting cartridges with .323" diameter bullet in firearms barreled for .318" diameter bullets by SAAMI but the average European and African and where else - Australian etc. shooters have enough snap not to do this to begin with. And compliance with SAAMI standards isn't force of law because the level of litigiousness in the US is so much higher in comparison so as to exert enough penalty on companies loading factory ammunition in the USA.
 
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Anybody that utilizes Dan Newberry's OCW method "verbatim" will end up testing loads over the published max, just due to the formula calculations:

3. Consult at least three load data sources for maximum charge weight for the powder you've selected. Powder manufacturers are the most reliable source. You must then decide on what your maximum charge will be.

4. Back away from the maximum charge by 7 to 10 percent, and load one test round with this charge. Add 2% to the charge weight, and load another cartridge with that charge. Load a third test cartridge with the next 2% graduation. You will use these three cartridges for sighters, and more importantly to determine pressure tolerance in your individual rifle.

5. Add another 2% or so to the charge level used in cartridge #3 of step 4, and load three rounds with this charge weight. Add .7% to 1% to this charge, and load three more. Add that same graduation again, and load three more. Continue adding the chosen graduation until you have moved ONE increment above your chosen maximum powder charge.


http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-instructions/4529817134

I have zero issues going above listed charges as long as I've worked up that load for my gun.
 
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