Innovation?

.40S&W is innovation and so are other calibers, I guess it depends on what prism one views the firearms world thru.

I think maybe there is more innovation in firearm accessories (sights, poly stocks, etc) and cartridges than in actual firearms. However, I wouldn't say there has been none. The KRISS Vector, for example, was a design that was pretty different than anything prior.

Very broadly, there has been few if you only look at simple concepts.

Same operations. Same metallic catrtridges. Same sighting devices. Etc.

All of these have been improved upon but there has been little overwhelming innovation.

Unless you include marketing.

The Last Outlaw said:

Saw a guy in a closed thread saying that there have been no innovations in firearms in a hundred years.

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I'm the guy. Lol.

And I said COMPARED TO OTHER SUCCESSFUL INDUSTRIES there is no innovation. Look at any other industry and the top sellers won't be 50 year old (or 100+ year old) copies. Or things borrowed from other industry. The AR. the 1911. 870. 500. 10-22. Smith's revolvers. Rugers revolver. All top sellers all older than i am. The Glock is 40...... No one is making a 50s cabinet model tube television. Nobody is making a simple 8n tractor. Not successfully anyway. I'm one of few who drives around in a 50+ year old set of vehicles. And even ill point out why most people aren't. Power steering and brakes etc are quite nice, as are synchronizers and all that unnecessary stuff. If you come out with an exact copy of anything else made in 1897 (winchester shotgun) or 1911. Or the 50s (AR) Etc you would sell a couple for nostalgia but it wouldn't be competitive with anything made today. Guns are. People drive my old vehicles and say nope. No wonder we don't drive 60s and 70s. Lol. Even the 80s supercars (contach) were slower and less luxurious than the modern camry.... Take out every gun today still using a Browning patent. He died 100 years ago. What is left.

Yeah we have night sights and polymer (again the Glock is 40 years old. the HK is even older. Both older than me) so if that's the best you can do for innovation then you kind of make my point. ). Night sights (and I like Night sights) That's like slapping a set of hid headlights on a 60s car and selling it today. It wouldn't sell. And it certainly wouldn't sell 20 million in a year. Night sights are a chemical innovation borrowed for the firearm industry. Plus trijicon was making sights 40 years ago too. Not really NEW. Tritium the isotope was found in the 30s. The Germans used night sights in ww2.

Fiber optics were used in medicine in the 1800s. Been used on Christmas decorations since before i was born.. Again nothing new.

And I have newer guns too. I love the industry. But as far as cash cows is one of the few that can rest in its laurels and be ok. The rhino and Kriss proved that. No reward for innovation

As was pointed out manufacture has changed. Tolerances are better for cheaper parts. I work on those machines daily. I see top of the line machines every couple years. No doubt the innovation is there. But not in design. And the guns using that new manufacture are often looked down upon.

The Last Outlaw said:

Do you guys think that there is not much innovation in the industry?

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Could depend upon age as well. Im 40. The Glock was around when I was born. So to me that's no innovation. The AR was around. Not as popular but was an old design when I was born. Night sights red dots all that was around in the 90s when I got into shooting. We were shooting Glocks. revolvers. Pump 870 and 500s. And AR and 10-22. All top sellers. We were using Aol. D.o.S. was the operating system still common. Big floppy disc's and vhs were hi tech. Nintendo and super Nintendo were the game system. The Lamborghini contach was THE car. 300 hp was a supercar.

All that is laughably outdated. A four cylinder Mustang is over 300 hp. My 2004 GT was less than 300. I get 20 MPG on a real good day. they get 30. (I sound much prettier. Lol) Yet we are shooting Glocks. revolvers. Pump 870 and 500s. And AR and 10-22. Still new good sellers.

Firearms are the least innovative thing we live with.

Synthetic plastic was invented in 1907.... Synthetics in a popular firearm was the first used in 1959.. Even what we consider a "modern Poly pistol" was invented 50 years ago.

I think it may be because firearms are relatively simple things, ultimately. Revolvers were innovative; automatic & semi auto; detachable magazines - but I don't see much more that can be done. Regulations may have something to do with it too. But I thin at this point, there's just not that much left to innovate.

Of course, that will hold true just until someone actually does come up with a significant innovation.

I believe there has been innovations in firearms. In one sense, there are good firearms on the market now that actually work and are accurate. Used to when, when you bought a cheap gun, you had a cheap gun. It was poorly made, and if you could hit a barn door you were doing good. In another sense, I believe innovation has went backwards. You could go in a gun shop years ago and it was full of walnut and steel firearms, that were made by craftsmen. Now it is mostly plastic. They all want to make the cheapest firearms possible. There is really no craftsmanship in them. They are just plastic, mim and stamped parts. It’s good in someways but we have lost a lot too, with innovations.

Innovation in other industries is dependent mostly on advances made in information technology. Unless you guys think there's a need for that kind of technology in the gun itself, which is going to mean batteries, then there isn't much need to innovate firearm functional technology. As noted above, most of the innovation in the firearms world is in devices that support the firearm, such as optics, ammunition, etc. and also manufacturing materials and processes.

The basis for a firearm is a propellant (explosive) and a projectile. It's been that way for hundreds of years. All the various ignition systems, cartridges, etc., are just refinements on the basic idea.

True innovation would mean thinking entirely outside the box. I suppose something like a portable directed-energy weapon might fill the bill. But even that might be too restrictive. What about being able to disrupt your opponent's body processes telepathically? Now that would be innovation!

I challenge somebody to point-out any FUNDAMENTAL differences between a Renault M1917 and the latest M1A2 SEPV3 Abrams.

There have been many innovations but few actual improvements in the firearms themselves.
Most are the results of process and materials that were brought over from other industries.
Improved metallurgy, more resilient plastics, more precise and faster machining processes, better casting and molding processes - almost all are the result of other production systems.
Few are developed internally within the firearm manufacturing communities.

I'm having a hard time reading this thread. I'm not sure if it is the glare from my laser or if the red dot is just getting in the way.

The Last Outlaw said:

Could magazine capacity be considered an innovation?

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Pistols with 13 - 18 round standard capacity magazines have been available since 1935 (Browning HP), and really took off in the 1970s (S&W 59, Beretta 92, etc.)

The Last Outlaw said:

Could magazine capacity be considered an innovation?

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Probably not in itself. I mean, "high capacity" magazines for hundred year-old design guns have been around awhile.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/1911-45-caliber-28rd-drum-magazine/#:~:text=28 Round Drum Magazine for.45 ACP. This series,range for spending more time shooting than reloading.

Red October said:

I think maybe there is more innovation in firearm accessories (sights, poly stocks, etc) and cartridges than in actual firearms. However, I wouldn't say there has been none. The KRISS Vector, for example, was a design that was pretty different than anything prior.

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As is the bullpup like the Steyr AUG

polymers, not so much, beyond the gutta percha, and rubber grips used over 100 years ago, however "modern" polymer frames are now well over 50 years old, the Nylon 66 Rifle being over 60.
Night sights are approaching that, if not passed it already.
Fiber optics that actually work are not, but are around 40 years old now, at least.
but I don't the poster was talking about the largely irrelevant material upgrades. It may be plastic but its still the browning tilting barrel, or blowback for 99% of whats out there. Even the more exotic designs can be tied to 80 year old designs in most cases.
Ultimately, we have not progressed technology to make anything stronger than we did 100 years ago, only cheaper, or lighter. Because of this, designs cant be much more efficient than what we already use. Its unlikely they ever will. We will probably have Phasers before a working caseless rifle.
Ultimately, there is no motivation for change. The patents are gone, and browning camming barrel designs allow accuracy and durability well beyond what virtually any human can take advantage of, at a price point that cant be beat by an innovation based product.

.455_Hunter said:

I challenge somebody to point-out any FUNDAMENTAL differences between a Renault M1917 and the latest M1A2 SEPV3 Abrams.

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I can't, but Porche did experiment with electric motivation like what a diesel locomotive uses, though I don't know if anything has been mass produced. I know that M1 does not use it but if a tank did I would call that a major evolution. Of course that technology is in the 100 year old range anyway.

The Last Outlaw said:

All those are good points, but you said 100 years, not forty or fifty.

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My first post Mentioned the 40 year old Glock in the other thread. I mentioned 100 years about the 1911. Specifically saying people still buy and carry 100 year old guns. The 1911. The hi-power is close. Single action revolvers....Etc. Still stand by that statement. And then the shotguns. Other than some impressive hammer bite I think the 97 and 98 (marlin)shotguns are perfectly fine if they are well maintained. I have a few. And either way if 40-50 year old tech is your innovation then you are not exactly an innovative industry. 40 years is 1980. What else you still use from 1980. I still have a couple Atari 2600. I have two fox body Mustangs (which were pretty much uninnovated till 94 really.) Like I said the faster car in the 80s was a contach. Had a 6 second 0-60 and would hit a blazing 158 mph. A fusion or camry is at that level now. Look at an 80s computer. Even your clothes. We aren't wearing cotton or wool all the time. We have nylon, poly etc.

All I was saying is its an odd industry. The items almost last forever. Most of them will because nobody uses them. And yet they sell 10-20 million of the same things every year for 40-50 or in some cases 100 years. I like it. But it's odd to me.

The Last Outlaw said:

I would say laser and red dot sights are an innovation.

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Lasers maybe. I have a 60s Sears wish book with a red dot. Called the bobcat. Claims to be the first. The reticle was called a "pip" lol. They have shrunk and battery power is exponentially better no doubt. Scopes are improved too. Certainly more affordable. But that's accessories. Not so much the guns.