Why 357 ammo is "watered down"

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This is why they warn you that lite shotgun loads may run as much pressure as a heavy Load. Load to the same pressure but with a faster powder and you can use less powder. save a tenth of a cent per round times a zillion rounds and it adds up.
 
I just know that 50 years ago you wanted your 158 grain bullet to compress the 2400 powder a bit when it was seated. I don't remember the exact weight and my hearing isn't what it was in 1967!
I have since lowered my loads a little bit.
 
Winchester white box .44Mag is definitely watered down. I've never chronographed it but it's factory rated at 1180fps. I can beat that with a published 330gr handload out of a 4 5/8" barrel.
 
Just because it doesn't match the crazy specs of some boutique manufacturer doesn't mean it's "watered-down".

The original factory load for the .357 Magnum was a 158-gr unjacketed lead bullet going around 1510 fps from an 8-3/8" barrel.

But nowadays the standard test barrel is 4". Not even half as long. The bullets are jacketed. Obviously it will have an impact on velocity.

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Buffalo Bore offers a 158 gr that makes a chronographed 1,485 fps from a 4-inch revolver! That's clearly much in excess of the original load.


They weren't shooting Buffalo Bore and Underwood loads back in the 1930s.
 
Just because it doesn't match the crazy specs of some boutique manufacturer doesn't mean it's "watered-down".

The original factory load for the .357 Magnum was a 158-gr unjacketed lead bullet going around 1510 fps from an 8-3/8" barrel.

But nowadays the standard test barrel is 4". Not even half as long. The bullets are jacketed. Obviously it will have an impact on velocity.

View attachment 957026

Buffalo Bore offers a 158 gr that makes a chronographed 1,485 fps from a 4-inch revolver! That's clearly much in excess of the original load.


They weren't shooting Buffalo Bore and Underwood loads back in the 1930s.

Also, the older test barrels were unvented, providing even more disparity from current techniques.
 
AS I have both a revolver and a lever-action in .357, I started reloading them when I finally acquired some supplies. Both guns are fed the same ammo but it is two different styles of bullets. While both weigh 158 grains, one is a semi-jacketed HP while the other is a semi-jacketed flat/soft point. The MAX load for those bullets is 0.1-0.2 gr. higher than what I load up. I use the factory loads for practice.
 
Just because it doesn't match the crazy specs of some boutique manufacturer doesn't mean it's "watered-down".

The original factory load for the .357 Magnum was a 158-gr unjacketed lead bullet going around 1510 fps from an 8-3/8" barrel.

But nowadays the standard test barrel is 4". Not even half as long. The bullets are jacketed. Obviously it will have an impact on velocity.

View attachment 957026

Buffalo Bore offers a 158 gr that makes a chronographed 1,485 fps from a 4-inch revolver! That's clearly much in excess of the original load.


They weren't shooting Buffalo Bore and Underwood loads back in the 1930s.
That is kinda what it means. A lot of folks ass-u-me that all Buffalo Bore or Underwood loads are over-pressure. They are not, unless specified. What you're paying for is the care they take in assembling their ammo, along with the use of blended powders, so they get the most out of a given cartridge. Without the concessions necessary for mass production. Winchester doesn't care that their white box stuff is 200fps slower than it should be. It's cheap bulk ammo and that is its reason for being. Like the old saying, "you can have cheap, fast or good, pick any two".

The only relevant thing that has changed since 1935 with regards to the .357 is the advent of better powders like H110, Lil Gun and 300MP, which result in MORE velocity at the same pressure.
 
When I was researching this, a number of years ago, and from time to time, since then, I noticed that gun writers who were doing their own chronographing were getting good real-world results with several .357 Magnum factory loads, fired from Ruger GP100 revolvers. Not “watered-down.” I actually used a Ruger GP100, in a defensive incident, in 1992, and have tended to continue to favor Ruger .357 revolvers, since then.
 
If you actually own a phone book flip on over the the attorney section. A whole lot of them ready and willing to sue.
 
along with the use of blended powders,

I wish somebody in the industry would provide the gen on "blended powders", "special order powders" and other secret sauce propellants said to be used by the small OEMs. I want a factory tour and see the blenders.

Vihtavouri makes about three times as many powders as they sell retail "canister grade", and St Marks makes a bunch for military and commercial loading that you see only as the occasional surplus batch. Once upon a time Hercules made nine (9!) different grades of Red Dot, one of which was canistered, the other eight sold to OEM loaders.
I expect that if you are buying a truck load, you can request a fast lot or a slow lot of some particular powder.
So I just wonder how much blending is required at the BB level.
 
I wish somebody in the industry would provide the gen on "blended powders", "special order powders" and other secret sauce propellants said to be used by the small OEMs. I want a factory tour and see the blenders.

Vihtavouri makes about three times as many powders as they sell retail "canister grade", and St Marks makes a bunch for military and commercial loading that you see only as the occasional surplus batch. Once upon a time Hercules made nine (9!) different grades of Red Dot, one of which was canistered, the other eight sold to OEM loaders.
I expect that if you are buying a truck load, you can request a fast lot or a slow lot of some particular powder.
So I just wonder how much blending is required at the BB level.
Good question. I imagine the blending probably goes on at the manufacturer. All they're basically doing is eliminating lot to lot variation so they can toe the line, pressure-wise. I know I couldn't even come close to their dangerous game loads, even using a lower crimp groove and a caseful of powder. So there's some amount of magic going on.
 
[QUOTE="CraigC, post:
The only relevant thing that has changed since 1935 with regards to the .357 is the advent of better powders like H110, Lil Gun and 300MP, which result in MORE velocity at the same pressure.[/QUOTE]
PSI is a measurement of applied force is it not? If the PSI is the the same then and now explain the difference between then and now in regards to velocity?
 
Put a hot 357 in a older gun. Kaboom law suit.

Which "older" guns chambered in 357 Magnum should not be fired with normal 357 magnum ammo? Which manufacturer has said this? Which models of guns? Which years of production? Where did you find this information and can you cite the source? Thank you.
 
PSI is a measurement of applied force is it not? If the PSI is the the same then and now explain the difference between then and now in regards to velocity?

What velocity difference are you referring to?
 
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PSI is a measurement of applied force is it not? If the PSI is the the same then and now explain the difference between then and now in regards to velocity?

Remember it's the peak pressure that we control for (part of the SAAMI spec for each cartridge) from a safety point of view. Peak pressure is what is damaging things in most cases. But the resulting velocity is not directly related to peak pressure. Velocity is proportional to the integral of the pressure vs time curve (impulse) or proportional to the square-root of the pressure vs distance curve (work/energy). So though a fast and slow powder might both produce similar peak pressures the slower burning powder will sustain that high pressure over the duration/distance of the bullet's travel down barrel resulting in higher velocity/momentum/energy.

The next part of my rambling is based on Quickloads an internal ballistics simulation software I have. I have not worked this particular 357 Magnum load in detail so it may not be absolutely correct but it will be close and hopefully a good illustration of how different burn rates of propellant can produce similar peak pressure but result in fairly different velocities due to the burn rate and differences in the pressure vs time/distance curves.

So lets take a 357 Magnum case, load with with a 158 gr JHP loaded to 1.59 inch OAL and fired in a 6-inch barrel.

In this first example we stuff that case with a maximum recommend charge of Winchester 296 (Hodgdon H110). W296 is a relatively slow pistol powder popular for magnum revolver cartridges among other uses.
jjmz7EJl.jpg
You can see here a simulated peak pressure (Red curve) of 34,262 psi and an expected muzzle velocity of 1423 fps. Notice here that we have a muzzle exit pressure of 8826 psi.

Next we take that exact same cartridge/gun but instead of loading it with W296 we use Titegroup. Titegroup is a very fast burning pistol powder more popular with small volume cartridges like 9mm and 40S&W but Hodgdon publishes a max load of 6.1 gr under a 158gr bullet in 357 Mag.
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You can see here a simulated peak pressure of 33,108 psi (96.6% of the W296 load) and yet we only have a velocity of 1116 fps (78.4% of the W296 load). Also notice that we have a muzzle exit pressure of only 3522 psi.

So both loads have very similar peak pressures and I think if you look at both of those pressure vs distance curves you can see how much more area (the integral) there is under the W296 curve than the Titegroup curve. Look how fast the pressure drops after the peak pressure is achieve. The Titegroup has completely burned the entire powder charge before the bullet has move and inch. The W296 is still burning all the way to the muzzle (actually wasting nearly 27% of the charge) The area, in this case since its pressuve vs distance, is proportional to the work done on the bullet and the resulting kinetics energy the bullet exits with and we see the W296 load produces 710 ft-lbs of energy and the Titegroup only produces 437 ft-lbs (61.5%).

Now you might think well lets use even slower powders but there is a sweet spot (W296 is pretty close to it) and if you go slower you find it burns so slow that you can't generate pressure faster than the volume is expanding down the barrel and you never generate any significant pressure. So for fun I filled the 357 Mag case full (slightly compressed even) of Hodgdon H1000 a slow rifle powder frequently used in big magnum rifles cartridges like 300 RUM and 300 Norma Mag.
GKuOuYfl.jpg
I think its obvious here that the propellent is too slow we never get any real pressure and thus no velocity or energy. In fact if you look in the Results Box at the bottom you can see that you only burn 12% of the powder before the bullet exits the muzzle. At pressure this low the powder might actually stop burning and quib a round in the barrel. I would not fully trust these result as this is likely outside good and proper use of the software.

And the point of all this rambling is that today we have a huge variety of powders available and with these greater selections we can select powders that stay under our peak pressure, stipulated by safety, while maintaining as high a pressure as possible for the rest of the trip down the barrel. In the 1930's when 357 Magnum was invented they did not have as many option for powders and they did not have the pressure measurement equipment and software we have now to help up pick these optimal propellants. There was significantly more trail and error need in load development back then, than is required now. Combining our larger selection of powders, greater ability to measure, and ability to simulate ahead of time means we can stay within the same safety constraints and produce greater output.

-rambin'
 
Which "older" guns chambered in 357 Magnum should not be fired with normal 357 magnum ammo? Which manufacturer has said this? Which models of guns? Which years of production? Where did you find this information and can you cite the source? Thank you.

Give me a few days im working alot of hours but I will post. When I have time to dig it up. OT stops the 13. So ill have that info or an apology by the 15.
 
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There are definitely calibers that are watered down or not loaded to their potential, due to legitimate concerns about somebody putting hot modern stuff in an action from an earlier era and blowing their hand or face up. Examples include 45-70, .38 “Super”, 8mm Mauser, possibly .38spl. I haven’t heard these allegations about .357 however. Anything made in .357 was made well into the era of modern metallurgy, heat-treating, and the understanding that the .357 was intended to be a powerful cartridge, so while some loads may be deliberately downloaded (so that they can be sold as reduced recoil or target) I’d be very surprised if it were systematic.
 
This post got me searching for Mr. Taffin’s FA 353 (only) loads

it seems that article is no longer on the net. To bad
I load to about 10% less than his original loads in my 353.
 
That is kinda what it means. A lot of folks ass-u-me that all Buffalo Bore or Underwood loads are over-pressure. They are not, unless specified. What you're paying for is the care they take in assembling their ammo, along with the use of blended powders, so they get the most out of a given cartridge. Without the concessions necessary for mass production. Winchester doesn't care that their white box stuff is 200fps slower than it should be. It's cheap bulk ammo and that is its reason for being. Like the old saying, "you can have cheap, fast or good, pick any two".

The only relevant thing that has changed since 1935 with regards to the .357 is the advent of better powders like H110, Lil Gun and 300MP, which result in MORE velocity at the same pressure.

That's an interesting definition of "watered down". As far as I am concerned, if it's producing equal velocities to the original loads, or if it matches the standard factory loads which themselves improved upon the original velocities, it's not "watered down". Watered down would be the traditional American 170 gr 8x57mm. I don't consider a .45-70 trapdoor load watered down, instead the modern loads are powered up.
 
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