223 for deer: never again!

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dranrab said:
Meat that does an 80 yard death dash into an impenetrable thicket in the last 5 minutes of legal shooting light may very well be 100% waste. Breaking an animal down right where it stands, even if it "wastes" a little meat, may be the best option based on the whole of the circumstances.
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Well, it was 50% waste in my case. My Dad found it the next day right away, but the half that was on the ground did not look good, so we cut down the spine (before CWD) left that half for the coyotes. That was with a .30-06 with a 165 Partition that bang flopped a buck similar to it the year before. The difference? This one has been chased through a swamp by a very inept hunter, ( he fell down several times, got up cursing each time) and when it popped out on the logging road I was on, I took it with the same shot on the first one, through the aorta and both lungs. The first buck didn't even know I was there until that Partition hit him.
 
JDeere said:
If that works for you so be it. I personally would never take a shot into the shoulder and waste good meat. Right behind the shoulder is actually where the vitals are...
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3B64C1A2-DF00-4D52-861B-9DF4F9370A75.jpeg
Lungs and spine are pretty vital and a high shoulder shot can find both while also breaking bones and immobilizing an animal. Keep shooting them anyway you want. This doe had nothing negative to say about the high shoulder shot, though I did not shoot her as high as the exit wound suggests. 828A99BC-8516-47E2-BF55-2B9FF15FE3F7.jpeg
 
Macchina said:
I lent out a few rifles this year to a friend and his son and by chance switched scopes on my 2 main deer rifles and haven't sighted them in yet. I was left with a 44 Mag 1894 and my slew of ARs. I have been hunting since the opener with my 44 Mag rifle but this weekend I took out a nice scoped 16" 5.56 AR loaded with 64gr Federal soft points.

I finally saw a shooter buck on Saturday at only 35 yards. I shot him in the lungs and he trotted about 10 yards and I shot him again in the chest. I was on the ground so I crept up about 10 yards to see if he was down and I saw him staggering so I shot him again (I don't know where this shot hit, I shot at fur at this point, most likely rump). All shots he was stationary and within 50 yards.

I didn't hear him go down so I waited a few minutes and went to look for him. He wasn't within sight and the sun was setting so I went back to the spot where I first shot him and not a speck of blood was to be found. I searched in the direction he went and never found a speck of blood. I searched for an hour and came back the next day and searched another hour. Never found blood, and I walked a grid for about 300 yards and never found anything.

I checked my rifle that night at 35 yards and I was within 1" of POA. I KNOW I hit that deer 3 times.

My first shot with any of my normal deer rifles would have planted that deer. My follow-up shots would have put him down within a hundred yards and sprayed blood everywhere. To not find a spec of blood really has soured me. I am sick and ready to rip up my tag. I have screwed up in the past when I was young and wounded deer but this was not one of those times. I had him stationary in my scope at buckshot distance and no blood was found. I am writing off .223 forever because of this. I know he was hit by how he was moving but to not bleed or drop is just crazy. I feel like I shot him with a 22 LR...
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Sorry you didn’t recover your deer, but thank you for your humility in posting your experience so we can all discuss it and learn.
 
You can argue your point till the cows come home but both of your pictures prove my point. Vitals location and destroyed shoulder. Carry on...
 
JDeere said:
You can argue your point till the cows come home but both of your pictures prove my point. Vitals location and destroyed shoulder. Carry on...
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And you can keep arguing yours. I’m obviously doing something right because my deer generally die where they stand and it has never mattered what my rifle was chambered in.
 
Just wanted to chime in before this thread gets locked down due to pissing matches.


I do use the 5.56 for medium game hunting and have had good success with it. However, it does have some serious limitations that need to be accounted for. Chiefly, low bc, poor sectional density and low impact surface area. So your bullet is going to bleed velocity, penatrate less tissue, and disrupt less tissue than other options. I pass up a lot of shots if I'm packing my AR for hunting if I can't get close enough to score a central nervous system hit or get a good bead on a forward shoulder shot. I took a decent buck this year using the forward shoulder method. There's a huge mass of nerves and arteries right at or just ahead of the front leg line that will flat out anchor game when hit. The 73gr ELD did a through and though on my deer this season at 225 yards and he died where he was standing.
 
entropy said:
Doesn't show a human on there either, but a heckuva lot of them have been killed with .223/5.56mm also.
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A heck of a lot of people have been killed from falls too, but I don't think anyone would suggest that capturing a live deer and throwing it off the roof of a house is a good way to kill them.

Would you like to continue on with this reductio ad absurdum?

I'll spell it out more clearly for those who are struggling with my point. Ammo makers have dumbed things down pretty well with their labeling. In the instance of the photo I posted, it shows pictures of light bodied animals. That is supposed to tell the user what the bullets design purpose is. When users shoot animals significantly larger and more solidly built than those for which a bullet was designed, it's not a caliber/chambering failure or a bullet failure when the animal isn't cleanly killed, it is a user error.

My grandson and granddaughter have probably killed 20-25 deer between them using a 223. Factory Fusion bullets, partitions and 64 grain Nosler bonded bullets were used in all cases. Many of the deer died where they stood. None ran more than 40-50 yards before dying. The bullets almost always passed through. Vitals were demolished.

I'd recommend that whatever chambering the OP uses that he studies the pictures on the box or otherwise does a little research on the bullets design purpose before using them on game.
 
I have killed lots of stuff with lots of stuff but never once killed one too dead.

Big hogs and even much larger animals go “lights out” with a .22 LR in the right spot, a 300 win mag in the wrong spot and a 95 lb dressed weight deer will scamper off.

If you are counting on it though and accuracy is equal, I tend to lean to more power and heavier bullets.

I spend more time walking to the place I am going to hunt than it takes to sight in a rifle, so I would never let that be my excuse for not using something more appropriate for the job at hand.
 
jmorris said:
I have killed lots of stuff with lots of stuff but never once killed one too dead.

Big hogs and even much larger animals go “lights out” with a .22 LR in the right spot, a 300 win mag in the wrong spot and a 95 lb dressed weight deer will scamper off.

If you are counting on it though and accuracy is equal, I tend to lean to more power and heavier bullets.

I spend more time walking to the place I am going to hunt than it takes to sight in a rifle, so I would never let that be my excuse for not using something more appropriate for the job at hand.
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Where does mismatching the BULLET to the came factor into your assessment? That's what we are dealing with in the OP.
 
Timely post for me. No simple answer to this. It all depends on the size of the deer you're hunting and the distance you're shooting. What works from a tree stand in Texas very well may not work hunting open ground in Minnesota.

I've hunted with a 6.5 Grendel the last four years up here in Northern Minnesota. Had good luck with it last year taking two decent bucks, both just under 200 yards. One of my sons has also been using a Grendel the last few years. Probably taken at least a dozen does with no problem, also at ranges around 200 yards or less.

This year I had a nice buck about 270 yards out. He was walking along a woodline and about to head back in so I took the shot. Watched the deer fold up as they always do (been hunting for over 40 years now so I've seen it many times) from a shot to the shoulder area. There was a slight ridge between us so I couldn't see him lying there but I was 100% confident he would be right where he dropped. Waited until dark to go pick him up and no deer in sight. Found an unimpressive blood trail going into the woods that eventually stopped. Never found him that night and not the next day either. Terrible feeling that is. My guess is the shot hit the deer right on a shoulder bone, knocked him over and somehow he got back up without me noticing and went back into the woods.

Looking at the ballistics I'm no longer comfortable with 1,000-1,200 foot pounds as sufficient energy to reliably take care of a large deer. Another one of my sons has his own experience with a similar amount of energy not taking down a large buck. Around 350 yards with a 120g 7mm-08. Took a couple well placed hits to bring it down.

As a consequence I'm done hunting here with the Grendel. It was a fun gun (AR-15) but I really have no reason to continue using it for my style of hunting. Back to my old 30-06. Never any drama with that.
 
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