.38 Tumblers

I was reflecting on the difficulty of getting hollow-points to both expand and penetrate deeply enough from a short-barrel .38 and wondered if I could make a bullet tumble after impact. I mucked about a bit and came up with a shape I thought might do the trick. I tested them by firing them into a shot-up block of Clear Ballistics 10% ordinance gel. It was obvious they had tumbled and penetration was decent, but the block was so torn up I couldn't really photograph the wound-track. OK, good enough; I was prepared to leave it at that.

Then I posted about it on the internet, and people got interested. A fellow down south has to cull feral pigs and volunteered to test the bullets on the carcasses. OK, I can make more. I refined my swaging method, altered the design slightly and cranked out a bunch of them. I loaded some in .38 S&W and some in .38 Special.

I took the bullets to the range to make sure they were flying straight and they certainly seemed to be; nice, round holes in the targets.

I re-cast the block of gel and tested the rounds on the 'virgin' block so I could get pictures of the wound-tracks. In the initial tests I used both bare gel and four layers of denim, and there didn't appear to be much difference in the results, so I didn't use it for the second set of tests.

Loaded into the .38 S&W the bullets were clocking around 620 fps. from the 1-5/8-inch barrel of the test-gun. I started with the .38 S&W, firing one unaltered 158gr. LRNFP and one of the re-swaged bullets. The stock bullet punched through the 16-inch block, leaving a very narrow, smooth wound track that I couldn't really photograph. The tumbler upset immediately on impact, and even after it streamlined produced a relatively wide wound-track as it proceeded backwards through the gel. It dove downward 2 inches and stopped against the table at 11-inches. The picture shows the raw image on the bottom and a contrast-enhanced image on the top.

You can just see the stock bullet's wound track at he bottom of the image. That's arguably better than the stock bullet; less penetration but a wider wound track.

On to testing the .38 Special. These were leaving the 3" barrel of the test gun at about 900fps. I didn't bother firing the normal bullet; if the .38 S&W went straight through the block half-again as much velocity was unlikely to improve things. This time the wound-track from the tumbler was quite a bit more interesting. The bullet stopped right at the end of the 16-inch block after curving upwards approximately two inches. The bullet upset about 3" into the block and didn't fully streamline until around 13-inches. Again the photo shows the raw image on the bottom and the contrast-enhanced image on top.

The zone of extreme disruption is in the vertical plane only, and overall the permanent wound track looks pretty impressive.

Of course gel is a comparative media, not a predictive one, but the permanent wound cavity is comparable to the results from bullets that are proven real-world performers. Of course I don't know what's going to happen when these hit bone or variable densities of tissue; hopefully the results on carcasses will illuminate that.

BTW, the test guns were a S&W .38 Safety Hammerless with a 1-5/8" barrel, chambered in .38 S&W. The .38 Special was a custom 3" Model 1902 Hand Ejector.

I'm going to try loading these into a .357 Magnum. The bullets are just lead, so I only plan on pushing them to 1100 fps. Should be interesting.

Hondo 60 said:

Agreed! Should be very interesting.

Thanks for taking the time to post.
I'll certainly be watching this thread.

Can we get a pic of just the bullet?
What's the weight?

Click to expand...

The bullet is 158gr., swaged from a LRNFP. The picture shows two recovered bullets and an un-altered 'donor' bullet.

WestKentucky said:

I bet with a gas check or a coating of some sort that it would make for an interesting bullet for sure. Soft and raw has to go too slow, but at mid range 357 velocities it should be very impressive. If it still tumbles and retains mass it should rip a sizable hole and deform a bit too.
My concern is the soft and skinny tip. I don’t think that it will fare well if it hits a bone.

Click to expand...

These are not dead soft but they're not super-hard either. I'm curious about what will happen when it hits bones too. We'll find out after the carcass tests, but that'll be a bit. I've got a buddy that makes bullet molds and is making noise about doing a hard-alloy version, but we'll see.

There's a reason the point looks like the neck of a .223; I used a .223 de-capping die to swage them! Good eye, Geodude! Yes, top-break revolvers are weaker, but these loads are well within acceptable specs for top-breaks in good condition. Not for nothing, but I've put between 3000-4000 rounds through the S&W top-break used in this test, and 2/3-3/4 of them were hotter than factory ammo (but still within informally established limits for top-breaks.)

Thanks! Loved The Watchmen... read the graphic novel in the way-backs, and fairly sure it's still here someone.

Someone suggested I see what I could do with .32 S&W Long and I thought, 'Why not?.' I wrote full write-up in my blog so I'll just give you the Reader's Digest condensed version here. I used a 100gr. LFP as the base bullet and swaged them in the same die I used for the .38s. I needed to re-size them after. I did two variations, a long-nose and short-nose. most of the testing was done with the short-nose bullet.


This is the short-nose bullet on the left with the standard bullet on the right. The picture below shows the long and short-nosed variants.

Both bullets were loaded over 4.2gr. of Unique with a Federal magnum small pistol primer. This made 1018fps. and 230 ft./lbs from the 4" gun, and 931fps. and 177ft./lbs from the 2" gun. The bullets didn't tumble, but they did produce a relatively wide PWC and passed completely through the 16" gel block. The bullets did not streamline before they exited the block. It looks as if they corkscrewed through the block. This was a significant improvement over the standard bullet, which left a wound-track that was basically a thin, interrupted silver line. Both PWCs were essentially the same so I'll show you the one that photographed best. the picture below shows the raw image on the bottom and a contrast-enhanced version above it.

The PWC is nearly a 1/2" at the widest and maintains this for the entire length of the block. I also tried one downloaded to 3.5gr., and aside from producing a narrower PWC performance in the gel was nearly identical. next I shot a single long-nose bullet from the 4" gun. Once again the bullet didn't tumble; it destabilized immediately producing a broad PWV before streamlining approximately 5 to 5-1/2" in, then came to rest at 10-1/2". It also curved significantly, and again appears to have cork-screwed rather than tumbled. Just above this PWC is the thin silver line of the stock bullet's path.

Interesting results. If I were to use either for self-defense it's be the short-nose variation. Plenty of penetration and enhanced wounding-power throughout the bullet's track, at least compared to the standard bullet. So, while they don't tumble they do present a useful enhancement which might contribute to incapacitation.

GeoDudeFlorida said:

Interesting! What models of revolver?

Click to expand...

Colt Detective Special and a H&R