SCOTUS accepts first major 2nd Amendment Gun case in over a decade - NY State Rifle & PA v. Corlett

Status
Not open for further replies.
One can argue that the majority of states are shall issue. Rolling that back doesn't seem in the future. Even may issue states can have a good number of permits. This can vary by county.

However, state AWBs and a Federal AWB are a powerful RKBA threat and seem to have more chances of being passed - state more than Federal.

Arguing that there won't be compliance doesn't understand the issue as the hidden guns become useless for most functions.
 
Limiting the issue to the 2A does away with procedural issues and kicking the can down the road. It's like the super bowl, only question is which team will win.

Although the 6-3 majority is hopeful, the court's number one priority is always it's own legitimacy.


What do you mean by this?
 
SC will have to take up the issue that seemed resolved by Heller & McDonald--that Strict Scrutiny is required for any law affecting the 2nd. Which is another important part of this question.

Heller affirmed an individual and not assembled group right, it also introduced a notion of "commonly used" too, meaning that the arms in question could not be restricted (meaning no discrimination of, say, handguns in favor of long arms).
McDonald gave us applicability in all the States, and the Strict interpretation requirement.

So, it looks like a specific polity would have to make a distinct and clear case that said polity was safer without firearms than with. Otherwise denying carry permits would be denying rights.

Under Strict Scrutiny, it will be hard to defend a "permit process" that does not actually issue permits.

Which will be a very big deal in the Probably-Not Issue States. (Mind they will probably just increase the requirements/standards for issue--which will be a different lawsuit.)
Which means those scary looking rifles are protected too.
 
...what if SCOTUS is wrong?...

Except, in the United States Constitution itself the Founding Fathers gave the federal courts the authority to decide what the Constitution means and how it applies (Constitution of the United States, Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....

Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,...

Judicial power is:
...the power “of a court to decide and pronounce a judgment and carry it into effect between persons and parties who bring a case before it for decision. It is the right to determine actual controversies arising between diverse litigants, duly instituted in courts....

The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute.

Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed. In fact, of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence, 25 were lawyers; and of the 55 framers of the Constitution, 32 were lawyers.

What our Constitution says and how it applies has been a matter for dispute almost as soon as the ink was dry. Hylton v. United States in 1796 appears to be the first major litigation involving a question of the interpretation and application of the Constitution. Then came Marbury v. Madison decided in 1803; and McCulloch v. Maryland was decided 10 years later, in 1813.

So, as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitution, if there is disagreement about how the Constitution applies to the circumstances of a particular case, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):
....It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.....
.

See also Madison in Federalist No. 39:
....the proposed government cannot be deemed a NATIONAL one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignty over all other objects. It is true that in controversies relating to the boundary between the two jurisdictions, the tribunal which is ultimately to decide, is to be established under the general government. But this does not change the principle of the case. The decision is to be impartially made, according to the rules of the Constitution; and all the usual and most effectual precautions are taken to secure this impartiality. Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact; and that it ought to be established under the general rather than under the local governments, or, to speak more properly, that it could be safely established under the first alone, is a position not likely to be combated....

And Hamilton in Federalist No. 78:
.......If it be said that the legislative body are themselves the constitutional judges of their own powers, and that the construction they put upon them is conclusive upon the other departments, it may be answered, that this cannot be the natural presumption, where it is not to be collected from any particular provisions in the Constitution. It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their WILL to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority. The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body. If there should happen to be an irreconcilable variance between the two, that which has the superior obligation and validity ought, of course, to be preferred; or, in other words, the Constitution ought to be preferred to the statute, ....
.

The U. S. Supreme Court has been deciding cases arising under the Constitution for over two hundred years. Its decisions in those cases affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. And those decision of the U. S.Supreme Court are also used by the lower courts in deciding cases brought before them.

The U. S. Supreme Court has consistently ruled that rights protected by the Constitution are not absolute and that under the correct circumstances may be regulated.

As the Supreme Court said in Murdock v. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105, 63 S.Ct. 870, 87 L.Ed. 1292, 146 A.L.R. 81 (1943), at 110:
… See for example Cox v. New Hampshire 312 U.S. 569, 61 S.Ct. 762, 85 L.Ed. 1049, 133 A.L.R. 1396, and Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031. But that merely illustrates that the rights with which we are dealing are not absolutes. …

As further illustration of this fundamental principle —

  1. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031(1942), at 571-572:
    …Allowing the broadest scope to the language and purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment, it is well understood that the right of free speech is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances. There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which has never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem …


  2. In Cox v. State of New Hampshire, 312 U.S. 569, 61 S.Ct. 762, 85 L.Ed. 1049, 133 A.L.R. 1396 (U. S. Supreme Court, 1941) the Supreme Court upheld as constitutional a municipal ordinance which burdened the exercise of a right protected under the First Amendment by requiring a permit, for which a fee was charged, to hold a parade of procession on the streets was valid and enforceable.

  3. In Hill v Colorado, 530 U.S. 703, 120 S.Ct. 2480, 147 L.Ed.2d 597 (2000), the Court upheld a Colorado law which restricted rights protected under the First Amendment by restricting protesting, educational or counseling activities within 100 feet of the entrance to a health facility.

  4. In Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618, 89 S.Ct. 1322, 22 L.Ed.2d 600 (1969), at 629 (emphasis added):
    ...our constitutional concepts of personal liberty unite to require that all citizens be free to travel throughout the length and breadth of our land uninhibited by statutes, rules, or regulations which unreasonably burden or restrict this movement….

In all such cases the Court analyzes the nature and significance of the right, the nature and extent of the the burden, and the importance of the governmental interests furthered by the imposition of the burden as part of the process of deciding whether a particular law regulating a right protected by the Constitution is, or is not, constitutionally permissible.

Reality is what happens in real life in the real world. There are over 1.3 million lawyers in the U. S. There are something on the order of 30,000 judges in various state courts and about 1,700 federal court judges. Something well over a million cases are filed each year in the state and federal trial courts. Decisions affecting the lives and property of real people are being made every day in that system.

...I am confident that I have an absolute right to defend my life without permission from anyone,...

No matter how confident you might be, confidence doesn't change reality.
 
...Remember there have been long standing prohibitions against carrying of concealed dangerous...which no one thought was wrong even at the time of the country's founding when the bill of rights was written.

If you read Heller, you'll see the court decisions upholding such laws discussed. It each case such laws were upheld in large part because state law permitted the open carry of firearms.
 
What do you mean by this?

looks like the court instructed the parties to focus on whether the permit denial violates the 2A. This means the court is looking to rule on the merits of the case vs deciding the case on a procedural issue like standing or ripeness.
 
looks like the court instructed the parties to focus on whether the permit denial violates the 2A. This means the court is looking to rule on the merits of the case vs deciding the case on a procedural issue like standing or ripeness.



Is that good or bad?
 
Conservative Justices Have a Chance to Overturn Handgun Laws Across the Country as Gun Club Targets N.Y.’s Strict Licensing Regime (msn.com)

For additional reading.

“A law that flatly prohibits ordinary law-abiding citizens from carrying a handgun for self-defense outside the home cannot be reconciled with the Court’s affirmation of the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation,” the gun club’s petition argues. “The Second Amendment does not exist to protect only the rights of the happy few who distinguish themselves from the body of ‘the people’ through some ‘proper cause.’ To the contrary, the Second Amendment exists to protect the rights of all the people.”
 
I'm not a lawyer nor a constitutional scholar, but I think SCOTUS made this distinction to rule on whether the 2A is violated by a regulation of the right that is too broad and restrictive by requiring a cause to exercise the right through a regulated means is based on circumstances the state should not restrict. IOW, carry can be regulated, but NY has regulated too restrictively. Whether that means NY will have to go to "Shall Issue" or keep "May Issue" less restrictively will be very interesting.

Something else altogether may happen and that's NY may decide the change the law to a broader "May Issue" criteria before SCOTUS can rule and that would stop the process as the cases would no longer have standing upon the change.
 
Something else altogether may happen and that's NY may decide the change the law to a broader "May Issue" criteria before SCOTUS can rule and that would stop the process as the cases would no longer have standing upon the change.


Wasn't that discuss here regarding the other NY case and the outcome was that SCOTUS didn't have to drop it?

If so, SCOTUS may get tired of that game.
 
Wasn't that discuss here regarding the other NY case and the outcome was that SCOTUS didn't have to drop it?

If so, SCOTUS may get tired of that game.

You may remember I'm involved with Knife Rights and we were on the cusp of having the case against NYC go to SCOTUS when the state changed the law. We continued to try to get SCOTUS to hear the case, but they would not because the law had been changed. We could face the same here if NY changes their restrictions to match other "May Issue" states making the other court decisions irrelevant.
 
Here's a good recap of the state of play in this case:

Given their druthers, there is little question that the Court, as currently constituted, will rule in favor of the plaintiff, and so will open up concealed carry to residents of the eight mostly large, blue states where such permits are currently limited (the other 42 states already allow concealed carry for most residents). Associate Justices Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas, and Neil Gorsuch, along with Kavanaugh and Barrett, have tipped their hands repeatedly in past jurisprudence. The views of Roberts are less clear, but when there is one of him and five of them, his views don't much matter.
https://electoral-vote.com/#item-2
https://electoral-vote.com/#item-2
 
Is (are?) SCOTUS setting up for an either/or situation with regard to open vs concealed? With the open carry Hawaii case in the pipeline also, we could potentially see the Supreme court tell states to be shall issue or allow open carry but, either way a permit would be allowed by the court.

I suspect this is a way for SCOTUS to get a defacto gun owner licensing scheme.

A stretch? Probably.
 
...Something else altogether may happen and that's NY may decide the change the law to a broader "May Issue" criteria before SCOTUS can rule and that would stop the process as the cases would no longer have standing upon the change.
If NY pulls that stunt again, does that force SCOTUS to dismiss as moot, as they did previously, or do they have the option to proceed anyway?
 
You may remember I'm involved with Knife Rights and we were on the cusp of having the case against NYC go to SCOTUS when the state changed the law. We continued to try to get SCOTUS to hear the case, but they would not because the law had been changed. We could face the same here if NY changes their restrictions to match other "May Issue" states making the other court decisions irrelevant.


This could go either way.


From what I read in that case if NY changes the law from 'May Issue' to 'Shall Issue' SCOTUS could choose to drop the case stating that the case is moot since NY changed the law.....on the other hand SCOTUS could plow forward and say that even though NY changed the law they could easily just change the law back to what it was as soon as SCOTUS drops the case.


In this case, even if NY changed the law I just don't see SCOTUS dropping the case since this case also affects numerous other states.
 
looks like the court instructed the parties to focus on whether the permit denial violates the 2A. This means the court is looking to rule on the merits of the case vs deciding the case on a procedural issue like standing or ripeness.



Could you explain this better? I don't know what standing and ripeness have to do vs. the merits?
 
Last edited:
I am with Burt. I expect the decision will nominally be for the plaintiff but so narrowly drawn and weasel worded as to offer little improvement to NY and not much carryover to other "good reason" repressive jurisdictions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top