Currently manufactured double rifles

Llama Bob said:

That's a good point. You must know it was proofed correctly which means knowing the history.

Honestly I don't think I could buy any double without shooting it too. Too many have problems.

I agree that Merkles have a BIG problem across the line, not just individual guns. I do not agree that it's a shooter problem on most rifles. Blaming the shooter, absent clear evidence that they actually moved their finger to and pressed the rear trigger, is counterproductive. Blaming "weak grip" on a 2-trigger gun (which hopefully is what we're talking about) is ridiculous as the shooter's finger is on the front trigger and pressing it again on rebound does nothing.

I've gotten out of the double rifle business after owning several briefly. Frankly I'm not impressed with them compared to my nitro .45-90 and .50-110. I have kept a couple double shotguns though. I've got a Connecticut Shotgun RLB 20ga I really like.

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The only thing ridiculous with my comment is that a guy with your obvious lack of experience with double rifles would think what I said was “ridiculous”. You’ve obviously spent very little or more likely zero time shooting a heavy recoiling two trigger double rifle.

Start reading through the comments here about rear trigger or front trigger first and trigger “strumming” in recoil. It’s a very real thing that ANYBODY who’s spent time shooting a larger double knows about and is fully aware of.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/double-rifle-triggers.23060/

The finger does not “magically” teleport to the rear trigger folks. A strum AKA trigger bounce is caused by an ill fitting rifle usually one with too long a length of pull or a weak grip usually with a new shooter who’s not accustomed to heavy recoil. The shooter subconsciously partially releases their trigger hand in recoil then re grabs the rifle snagging the rear trigger. I’ve seen it done dozens of times, I’ve done it myself on occasion.anybody who’s spent any time around big bore doubles is familiar with it and most have done it.

If you firmly grip the forend with a full grip you’ll have less doubling episodes. That’s a fact for those of you interested in double rifles and shooting technique. Far and away the most common cause of doubling shooter error. I’ve seen it done on multiple makes and models including guns with intercepting sears.

I’ve also seen gun malfunction and mechanically double. They are far less common.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...opics/10915776/Double_rifle,_front_trigger_fi

Llama Bob said:

This is a strange and magical superstition. If you grasp the rifle normally, put your finger on the front trigger, and pull you will not strum, bump, cajole, teleport to, or psychically influence the rear trigger. As quoted above in the thread you yourself linked, it simply does not happen. Your finger remains on the front trigger. If the second barrel goes off, that is failed lockwork plain and simple.

The obvious question, when trying to figure out if your rifle suffered a mechanical failure, is "did I get the same number of shots as triggers I pulled?"

Since you keep linking to random things on the internet, I will keep pointing out that they repeatedly reinforce that I'm right. Like this little gem from that 24 hour campfire thread:

See, it's funny - when you fix the mechanical problem rather than engaging in superstition, the problem goes away When you don't fix the mechanical problem, everyone can stand around and accuse each other of holding it wrong, but at the end of the day the gun will still double.

People elsewhere are telling you the EXACT same things I'm trying to explain to you. There's a reason for that.

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The problem here is that there is no way to prove or disprove by continuing this conversation with you Bob. With that being said people are welcome to listen to you if they choose to. A guy who doesn’t own, operate, shoot or hunt with a double of any kind. Or they can start shooting them and talking to people who do and find out for themselves.

In any case if I were buying a new factory double in the low end of the pack. I’d look real hard at Chapuis. I’d stay away from a Merkle although not all Merkles have issues with mechanical doubling. And most likely I’d save up my money and buy a Heym 88 or preferably a Heym 89.

Llama Bob said:

It is actually very EASY to prove if a two trigger rifle (or shotgun) doubling is caused by the shooter. Anyone can do it. Load one round in the front trigger barrel (right for standard right hand guns) and a snap cap in the 2nd barrel, fire the rifle, and see if the shooter's finger somehow ends up on the back trigger. If it does, then you can blame the shooter. If the shooter's finger remains on the front trigger but the second lock fires, well...

I have plenty of experience with double rifles and have owned and shot several. You've simply been caught spreading a superstition and it's not working because you keep linking to threads where people are telling you exactly what I'm telling you That's because we're all telling you facts.

I've probably debugged something like 20 doubling two-trigger guns at this point. All but one were magnum 12 and 10 ga shotguns (the other was a Merkel rifle), but since the recoil between the big shotguns and say a 450NE is about the same it's the same phenomenon. Not a single one was caused by the shooter, although several shooters had been incorrectly told otherwise by the superstitious. Every single gun could be made to double in a rest and did so before requiring repair. None doubled after repair, although a couple were retired to wall hangers due to soft steel in the locks. Interestingly enough the Merkel had some kind of safety mechanism on the left lock. It was still faulty.

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Llama,

You have not proven or disproven anything. You’ve done nothing more than make a claim. As I mentioned above this “conversation” will not accomplish anything more than you said or I said. So let’s leave it at that

For anyone interested, If you ever are going to buy a heavy double learn to shoot it properly and it will be a much better experience.

mcb said:

Is this even trigger order a resolvable argument? I mean a quick search of several dangerous/African game focused forums and blogs seems to point to the order of trigger operation on a double-trigger SxS rifle seems to be as controversial and unsettled at the old Chevy vs Ford, or S&W vs Colt arguments. In about twenty minutes of reading I did not see any real consensus. My own experience with SxS rifles is negligible though I have read a fair bit about and even shop for one fairly seriously until a certain redhead came along. I do own a double trigger SxS shotgun and I have always select the trigger that fits the shot since my right barrel is a modified and the left barrel full. Typical though I shoot front trigger to back but that is because the critter is usually trying to get away from my wile pursuits so shooting the full chock second makes sense.

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There really is no controversy on what trigger to pull first with a properly functioning rifle and shooter who understands the intricacies of shooting a big bore double. Either is fine.

When I’m hunting DG I place a soft point in the right barrel and a solid in the left barrel. I can choose to fire either first depending on the situation. If I’m in thick brush in elephant country I carry two solids then switch the right barrel for a soft once I get into Buffalo. If I’ve got a hard quartering shot I’ll pull the back trigger first using the solid. That’s the beauty of a double. It gives load options without reloading the rifle.

The whole controversy about which trigger to pull first is about new or untrained shooters not strumming the rear trigger during the recoil pulse. There is also some controversy about regulation and which trigger is pulled first but that’s a misunderstanding, regulation doesn’t change depending on what trigger is pulled first. Or at least it doesn’t change enough to matter.

When I let people who’ve never shot a double before shoot one of mine I just tell them to shoot rear trigger first. Otherwise they have a chance of doubling the gun and that’s not fun. I’ve seen it done multiple times with new shooters.

One of the ways you can tell if it was a mechanical failure or shooter error is by the length of pause or lack thereof between the shots. A mechanical failure produces an almost or instantaneous second shot. There is generally a very short pause when a guy strums the second trigger.

mcb said:

This seems reasonable and sort of what I would expect. Your use of loading both a soft-point and solid is akin to my selection of chokes in my shotgun, selection by which trigger is pulled and seems like one of the obvious advantages to a double-trigger double rifle or shotgun.

Out of curiosity are single-trigger double-rifles common and do they have a way to select which barrel? All of my O/U shotguns are single trigger guns but all have some means to select which barrel fires first. The safety is also the selector on two guns and a small lever on the trigger above where you finger rests to pull allows selection of which barrel on the third.

I have never had my shotgun double I have purposely doubled it a couple just to see what its like but even two 3-inch 12 gauge heavy hunting loads is significantly less recoil than a big bore rifle doubling and probable less than a single round with some of the more powerful double gun cartridges. -ramblin'

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There are some single trigger selective barrel double rifles out there. But doubles and double shooters are steeped in tradition and are weird about things that are non traditional, so you don’t see a lot of them. Honestly most neophyte double shooters would probably be better off with a single trigger gun.