The Ghost Gun Issue as a Straw Horse

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SharpDog

SharpDog

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IMHO: The current administration's fight against ghost guns is really a straw horse for universal background checks and ultimately, universal gun registration. Manufacturing firearms for personal use without a license or paperwork is legal per the gun control act of 1968. The ATF has ruled that 80% lowers are legal and not considered firearms. So, there is no legal requirement to 'track' ghost guns. If I made a ghost gun and I transferred it to a friend or relative, why whould I need it to have a serial number or undergo a background check ?

Now, If I was going to transfer a gun to a person I did not know well, I might want to run a background check, but that is besides the point. IMHO: I should not 'have to' run such a check.
 
SharpDog said:
The ATF has ruled that 80% lowers are legal and not considered firearms. So, there is no legal requirement to 'track' ghost guns. If I made a ghost gun and I transferred it to a friend or relative, why whould I need it to have a serial number or undergo a background check ?
Click to expand...

Because, once you finish that 80% lower, and create a working firearm, its no longer an 80% lower. Its a firearm. Now, if you were to keep it, no problem, you have a home built firearm, no serial needed. If you want to transfer it, that's where you have a problem. You are either manufacturing without a license at worst, or transferring a firearm with no serial number. You can sell the 80% lower as is, no problems, but once you drill one hole in it, you're married to it.
 
Deleted, didn't find what I was looking for.


Edit: I could be wrong. I only mentioned this as a point of reference. I'm going to look again.
 
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“
§ 478.92 Identification of firearms and armor piercing ammunition by licensed manufacturers and licensed importers.

  1. a.

    1. 1.FIREARMS.You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
      ...”
https://regulations.atf.gov/478-92/2019-24570#478-92

As an individual, that doesn’t apply to you.

As an individual you also can’t make firearms with the intent to sell them. However, the law does not explicitly preclude the sale or transfer of a homemade firearm. “intent” comes into play as well as doing something in a transaction that is explicitly prohibited. Like selling one to someone that was known to be prohibited.
 
bersaguy said:
Because, once you finish that 80% lower, and create a working firearm, its no longer an 80% lower. Its a firearm. Now, if you were to keep it, no problem, you have a home built firearm, no serial needed. If you want to transfer it, that's where you have a problem. You are either manufacturing without a license at worst, or transferring a firearm with no serial number. You can sell the 80% lower as is, no problems, but once you drill one hole in it, you're married to it.
Click to expand...

Any additional modification towards accommodating parts for a working receiver = firearm without serial?
 
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but what is so hard about stamping a number on a gun you built? If you keep it then fine it has a number on it. As I understand it, if you sell it at some later date it has a number on it. I am more against UBC than having to stamp a 123 on a home made gun.

I don't have and have not built a gun at home (AKA Ghost Gun), so, I am uneducated on the reason for doing such. Is it cheaper, is it better, is it just so you don't have to do a BG Check?

When I first heard of Ghost Guns, they were guns being illegally made overseas and sold in order to get guns in the hands of criminals, it has obviously evolved now to include making a gun for yourself at home.

I am a 100% supporter of the second, I am anti UBC, but if I am not going to do anything illegal with it who cares if it has a number on it. Am I missing something? Other than the if you give them an inch argument?

I am honestly asking here as this whole ghost gun thing to me seems pretty absurd. Do you have to register it to get a number on it or just stamp a number on it? Having to register it I can understand as a deterrent to numbering it and an infringement on rights.

Seems to me I read somewhere, I think it was the tenth amendment, that

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people".

I am not a lawyer, and the second says, "shall not be infringed" so, it seems to me the US (and the states) are thus prohibited from violating it since it is written in the constitution as a right. At least that is my understanding of the intent of the 10th and the reason it exists.

D
 
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webrx said:
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but what is so hard about stamping a number on a gun you built? If you keep it then fine it has a number on it. As I understand it, if you sell it at some later date it has a number on it. I am more against UBC than having to stamp a 123 on a home made gun.

I am a 100% supporter of the second, I am anti UBC, but if I am not going to do anything illegal with it who cares if it has a number on it. Am I missing something? Other than the if you give them an inch argument?

I am honestly asking here as this whole ghost gun thing to me seems pretty absurd. Do you have to register it to get a number on it or just stamp a number on it? That I can understand as a deterrent to numbering it and an infringement.
D
Click to expand...

Stamping a number, a picture of a goat or anything else I have no problem with. I do have a problem with giving that number or picture of a goat to the gov't or anyone else for tracking purposes.
 
SharpDog said:
Stamping a number, a picture of a goat or anything else I have no problem with. I do have a problem with giving that number or picture of a goat to the gov't or anyone else for tracking purposes.
Click to expand...

Yes, and I agree there should not be a registry.

I am aware now of why thanks to your reply and a bit of research.

As for a registry:
They have a way to track purchases now, and that means in today's computer driven world, there is a consolidated database or at least access to multiple databases with records somewhere. The last few 4473s I have filled out have been on a computer screens, that info is going into a database, but, I wanted the gun and I had to do the form, even with a CCW, they just don't have to call it in.

How many times have we heard that this person or that person shot someone (or a bunch of someones) and the police were able to trace whether the gun was legally purchased or not by that individual within a matter of days? Do we think they went to every gun dealer in the area, had them manually sift through hundreds of thousands of pieces of paper to find out who and when a weapon was bought? Or did a concerned citizen gun shop owner just happen to remember they sold a gun to someone that looked like that person and take it on themselves to do the sifting and find the record?

This ghost gun stuff is so absurd in my opinion, it is not going to stop any shootings, only the law abiding citizens will do it. I suspect criminals are more likely to buy a gun off the street, serial number on it or not, or one with the numbers ground off, then they are to take the time to build a gun in their garage.

Criminals don't follow the rules, law abiding citizens are not the ones out there shooting people. Maybe someday the politicians will figure that out.

Sorry for the rant, I get the GG issue now.

d
 
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From my perspective, all this business of serializing home made firearms or 80% receivers etc comes down to one fundamental question:

Given the way our currently justice and penal systems work (because changing that is an entirely different subject), do you believe any free* person in this country should be prohibited from owning a firearm for any reason?

Your answer to that question will have a huge effect on how you feel about serial numbers, home made firearms, 80% receivers and kits, and also on background checks.

*By "free" I mean not currently in prison, jail, or some other secured facility.
 
webrx said:
How many times have we heard that this person or that person shot someone (or a bunch of someones) and the police were able to trace whether the gun was legally purchased or not by that individual within a matter of days? Do we think they went to every gun dealer in the area, had them manually sift through hundreds of thousands of pieces of paper to find out who and when a weapon was bought? Or did a concerned citizen gun shop owner just happen to remember they sold a gun to someone that looked like that person and take it on themselves to do the sifting and find the record?
Click to expand...

Not that I'm saying data collection isn't happening but...

The simple answer to tracking the legal purchase of a recovered firearm in such an instance is to go Manufacturer > Distributor > Gun Store > Sale. The serial number along with the federal requirements on keeping such records for businesses with FFLs would make that a snap.
 
WrongHanded said:
From my perspective, all this business of serializing home made firearms or 80% receivers etc comes down to one fundamental question:

Given the way our currently justice and penal systems work (because changing that is an entirely different subject), do you believe any free* person in this country should be prohibited from owning a firearm for any reason?

Your answer to that question will have a huge effect on how you feel about serial numbers, home made firearms, 80% receivers and kits, and also on background checks.

*By "free" I mean not currently in prison, jail, or some other secured facility.
Click to expand...

My answer is no, law abiding citizens should not be restricted from owning a firearm.

I guess the powers that be can stop the sale of 80% guns or make us do a BGC to buy a kit gun, which is not going to make a dent in gun crime, or (god forbid), you can arrest, stop, lock up, enforce the existing laws on the criminals, and the gangs who are the problem to begin with.

d
 
webrx said:
My answer is no, law abiding citizens should not be restricted from owning a firearm.
Click to expand...

I respect you giving such a straight forward answer. It's hard for a lot of people to accept that child molesters, rapists, and other violent offenders who may have committed horrendous acts, deserve to have all their rights restored when they have served their sentence.
 
WrongHanded said:
Not that I'm saying data collection isn't happening but...

The simple answer to tracking the legal purchase of a recovered firearm in such an instance is to go Manufacturer > Distributor > Gun Store > Sale. The serial number along with the federal requirements on keeping such records for businesses with FFLs would make that a snap.
Click to expand...
I agree, finding out who has purchased guns is not difficult - if you have the serial number, it would be pretty easy to track down, which store sold it and to who, because everything is digitized these days. I would much rather fill out paper forms than the digital ones, but I suspect paper forms will be going away at some point (gotta save the trees) which will make it even easier to track who bought. It will also make it easier for the DHS or some other 3 letter agency at some point to be able to get a list of every person who has bought a gun legally. Again, this does not thing to stop crime, because criminals don't follow the rules.

Sorry, circular argument there.

I recall somewhere, reading that some state maybe it was CA, has a restriction on how may you can buy in a month, that means there has to be a record of how many you bought, I think we are being naïve if we think there is not a database is all I am saying.

d
 
WrongHanded said:
I respect you giving such a straight forward answer. It's hard for a lot of people to accept that child molesters, rapists, and other violent offenders who may have committed horrendous acts, deserve to have all their rights restored when they have served their sentence.
Click to expand...
The other side of that argument is repeat violent felons and what to do with them. But that is off topic.
 
SharpDog said:
IMHO: The current administration's fight against ghost guns is really a straw horse for universal background checks and ultimately, universal gun registration. Manufacturing firearms for personal use without a license or paperwork is legal per the gun control act of 1968. The ATF has ruled that 80% lowers are legal and not considered firearms. So, there is no legal requirement to 'track' ghost guns. If I made a ghost gun and I transferred it to a friend or relative, why whould I need it to have a serial number or undergo a background check ?

Now, If I was going to transfer a gun to a person I did not know well, I might want to run a background check, but that is besides the point. IMHO: I should not 'have to' run such a check.
Click to expand...

You are only half right there. I believe they also want to destroy the knowledge of how to build guns. Because a gun ban doesn't work if everyone who wants a gun knows how to build their own.
 
If I made a ghost gun and I transferred it to a friend or relative, why whould I need it to have a serial number or undergo a background check ?
Click to expand...
There is no such FEDERAL requirement. Your state may have different laws.

HOWEVER, and this is a big 'however' if you made that gun specifically to be transferred or sold, then you are breaking federal law. You may only make guns for your own use. If you LATER decide to sell one or give it away, then that's not a problem, but if you are making guns for other people you need to be federally licensed and follow the applicable laws if you don't want to run afoul of the Federal Government.

Just in case it's not obvious, my above comment is about how things are, not about how I think they should be.

How do I think they should be? Well, it's complicated because to make the situation ideal would take a lot more than just changing the gun laws.

In very short form, I think that for the most part, things/objects/substances should not be regulated but actions should be. There are some exceptions to that, but this was supposed to be "very short", right?

For that to work, people have to be held responsible for their actions and penalties must be severe enough to have significant deterrent value for non-offenders and to prevent recidivism in offenders. I don't believe in rehabilitation for intentional violent crimes. If someone intentionally and criminally attacks other members of society, they need to be heavily penalized, and repeat offenders need to be dealt with in a way that completely prevents re-offending whether that means termination or permanent incarceration.

Right now we find ourselves in a situation where a very small percentage of the population is terrorizing the rest of society and a lot of that has to do with the two facts:

1. Offenders are allowed to re-offend.
2. Penalties do not provide a sufficient deterrent.

Here's an interesting study.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131206111644.htm
"One percent of population responsible for 63% of violent crime, Swedish study reveals"
The study found that 4% of the population committed all of the violent crime, and that a quarter of those offenders, only 1% of the population (made up of reoffenders) was responsible for 63% of all violent crime.

By the way, I do not believe for a minute that our society is willing to take the steps necessary to establish a level of personal responsibility and punishment sufficient for my idea to work properly.
 
The Glockodile said:
Any additional modification towards accommodating parts for a working receiver = firearm without serial?
Click to expand...
As far as I know, that is correct. An 80% lower is not considered a firearm by the ATF as it is only 80% complete. That chunk of aluminum would then need to be worked by a competent machinist, or mounted into a prohibitively expensive CNC machine to be completed. My understanding is the ATF chose this arbitrary 80% cut off to be the point that determines the difference between building a firearm and buying one. Now if that lower is 81% complete, then its a firearm, at least thats how it has been explained to me. Now, I very well may be mistaken, and from the other comments here, I probably am, but I was under the impression that if I wanted to transfer a homebuilt firearm, I would have to put an unique identifying number on it. But from what I'm seeing, it looks like its the intent behind making the gun in the first place. That puts the whole ball of wax in a very murky grey area.
 
Underlying all this --- Anyone know what percentage of total firearms in possession of Americans today fit the definition of "Ghost Guns" ? I am picturing 0.0 with some more zeros before a more substantial digit ...

That probably does make it a political straw man , or Trojan Horse , or something.
 
SharpDog said:
IMHO: The current administration's fight against ghost guns is really a straw horse for...
Click to expand...


Here,we have this rogue Admin Rule out NOW, for a comment period ending sometime early August 2021. It IS a straw horse, in that they DO want more, more, and then morer (LoL). After morer, they are happy to say they REALLY meant, morererrr (haha)...

And further clarification please refer to my :eek:signature line, below

HOWEVER...they are perfectly happy for this current purposed rule to GO THROUGH AS WRITTEN. Or, barely adjusted to appease donors to certain sections of the populace ''see, we are reasonable''. In this sense, it is NOT A STRAW HORSE.

Best to always think, ''they REALLY want :what:what they say they want'' IMHO

COMMENT PERIOD IS OPEN, and they are REQUIRED to respond to every comment. THIS << is the way to defeat all of it, flood their offices / servers with comments. Hey...they LUVs some red tape...give it to them:scrutiny:
 
Anyone know what percentage of total firearms in possession of Americans today fit the definition of "Ghost Guns" ?
Click to expand...
By definition, it would be very difficult to come up with an accurate number.

I can tell you one thing that surprised me a bit. In a recent article about a violent crime, they included a picture of the two handguns used in the crime--both of them were clearly P80 builds. That's obviously nothing at all like knowing any statistics about them--I just thought it was interesting.
 
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