Who Wants an 8mm Cartridge?

WrongHanded said:

So the 9mm fell out of favor some decades ago and we got a 10mm, then the 10mm Short (a.k.a .40S&W). Now bullet technology has advanced to the point that 9mm can reliably pass the FBI test, and it's back in vogue.

Lower recoil, greater capacity, still expands to 150% or more of original diameter through various mediums, and goes deep enough but not too deep in ballistic gelatin.

So who's ready for an 8mm cartridge that does all that, but with even more capacity, lower recoil, and still passes the FBI penetration and expansion testing?

If such a beast came to be, would you jump on it?

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Sooooo, basically 7.65 French?

Hmm, maybe a 9x23 necked down to 8 (ok 7.92mm 0.312) with, say a 100 gr or 110gr bullet in a 20mm long case?
Would stack like a regular 9x19 in a magazine.
Now, are there some superior BC .312 bullets out there?
A 110gr at near 1200fps would be very interesting.

CapnMac said:

Now, are there some superior BC .312 bullets out there?
A 110gr at near 1200fps would be very interesting.

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Speer did make a 115gr Gold Dot for the .32 revolvers, but they discontinued that bullet and asking for bullet makers to do anything in .32 they don't currently do is asking them to pull teeth.

Come on guys.......let's make it work -

Who wants an 8mm pistol cartridge?

Probably all the kiddies who have gotten
bored by all their other gun toys and
not really mastered any of them.

I think I have a negative attitude.

Did a quick sketch in Fusion 360 and in the same vertical space as a double stack of 15 rounds of 9mm you could get 18 rounds of this notional 8mm cartridge while being potential 15% narrow assuming a relatively thin mag body.

Dlt .

A lengthened true rimless .25 loaded to high pressures could make 150 FT LBS in an LCP sized gun with a double stack magazine of 15 rounds would be really nifty. It could be made VERY thin and be as compact as an LCP II yet have 15 rounds or so. Ballistics would be in line with .32 ACP.

Better yet, perhaps with advances in case strength and powder technology, could a .17 caliber straight walled pistol cartridge be loaded to extremely high pressures in the 100K range? One could have a gun the same size and thickness as a KelTec P32 or an LCP Gen 1 but with a double stack 20 round or so magazine. Perhaps the projectile could be designed to yaw upon impact creating a good sized permanent wound cavity even without expansion?

Taking that a step further, could future advancements allow a gun the size of an NAA mini revolver but only 1/4” or so thick to be integrated with the Navy’s new electromagnetic rail gun technology? I imagine if a maker such as Ruger or SIG could fit a fusion cell power source into the grip panels and a magazine holding a hundred or more 1-2mm ferrous alloy slugs that could be launched at roughly 20,000 FPS equalling energies approaching the .357 magnum, and utilizing some form of inertial canceling recoil dampening system, they could make a great EDC gun.

MSRP would need to be kept below the GDP of Ethiopia but I think it would be a hot seller.

Jim Watson said:

Listed as a 116 at 1088, how much improvement do you want?

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Some modern powder techniques could probably get that performance from compact/sub-compact barrel length, and match the 5" service platform performance.

I feel like someone is going to re-invent .357 SIG or 7.5 FK if we allow bottleneck cartridges in this discussion. It's probably a topic for another discussion.

The hypothetical 8mm straight-wall or .30 Carbine Short is interesting, but seems like the increase in magazine capacity is not too great.

zaitcev said:

The hypothetical 8mm straight-wall or .30 Carbine Short is interesting, but seems like the increase in magazine capacity is not too great.

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I think it's a solution looking for a problem. Okay, maybe in the Sig 365 type guns adding 3 rounds is great, but where's the need? No, instead the focus should be on lower recoil and penetration. With a .32, you can't get too much lower than that of .380 in terms of recoil, you can get a bit less with a 70-80 grain bullet, but you can beat the .380 in velocity and penetration with an expanded hollow point as .380 just struggles with velocity and getting a bullet to open up, only Hornady and Federal have really gotten that science down for the micro pistols, but a longer barrel like 4 or 5 inch and I'm concerned about the bullets opening up too fast, falling apart, and then not penetrating.

The .32 NAA, with the proper bullets like the XTP, it's going to expand, penetrate, and hold together over a wide range of velocities.

A 32 Super sounds interesting to me with a max OAL of a 9x19 and more bullets in the magazine it could fly. But as mentioned it would likely be a loud SOB.

I’ll pass. My handguns already pass FBI standards. But rest assured, they will be bringing out something new in the next couple years. I’d like the 10mm to grow in popularity for awhile before they bring out a new whizbang.

Hmm, ".32 super" that's an interesting notion.
Go from 7.65x17sr to a notional 8mm x 19 ? That could be cool. Might make the .327mag folks a bit peeved, though.

Would be slick in a toggle-action lever gun.

JCooperfan1911 said:

Better yet, perhaps with advances in case strength and powder technology, could a .17 caliber straight walled pistol cartridge be loaded to extremely high pressures

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Jeff Cooper said of Husqvarna prototype gas operated pistols, not needed for 9mm, but it might make possible a Mach 3 .17 that would burn through body armor. Crazy talk from Mr .45.

Kind of like H. Beam Piper's SF description of the Akor Neb pistol: A 10 grain nickel-manganese bullet at 10000 fps. Sudden death from hydrostatic shock with any torso hit.

Last Enemy

Love the Paratime series!

I don't know about an 8mm but TTv2 is selling me on the 32 NAA.

WrongHanded said:

It's actually a hypothetical, asking a question.

Would you sacrifice per hit wounding for faster split times and higher capacity, if the FBI said an 8mm round was good to go?

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I don't think the increased capacity means anything, I don't think it makes any difference at all. What would is the lower recoil and faster shooting.

And I don't rely on what the FBI tells me, I use it as a guide. There have been some on here who refuse to carry or recommend carrying anything not on approved FBI or Law Enforcement lists, I use a little bit of common sense and my checklist is simple.

Do I shoot it well?
Does the gun function properly?
Does the bullet penetrate enough?
Is expansion/non-expansion repeatable?

The .32's biggest struggle is getting the 12 inches of penetration with an expanded bullet because, other .32 NAA, the velocity just isn't there. That's not to say that hollow points need to be relied upon, we have bullets that don't require expansion to be effective and will penetrate and those are almost custom made to improve performance out of short barrels and smaller, lighter calibers.

TTv2 said:

I don't think the increased capacity means anything, I don't think it makes any difference at all. What would is the lower recoil and faster shooting.

And I don't rely on what the FBI tells me, I use it as a guide. There have been some on here who refuse to carry or recommend carrying anything not on approved FBI or Law Enforcement lists, I use a little bit of common sense and my checklist is simple.

Do I shoot it well?
Does the gun function properly?
Does the bullet penetrate enough?
Is expansion/non-expansion repeatable?

The .32's biggest struggle is getting the 12 inches of penetration with an expanded bullet because, other .32 NAA, the velocity just isn't there. That's not to say that hollow points need to be relied upon, we have bullets that don't require expansion to be effective and will penetrate and those are almost custom made to improve performance out of short barrels and smaller, lighter calibers.

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Everyone thinks capacity doesn't matter until the gun is empty and there are still threats, then it matters, a lot.

mcb said:

Everyone thinks capacity doesn't matter until the gun is empty and there are still threats, then it matters, a lot.

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How often outside of a warzone does a civilian going about their day find himself in a situation where they need to draw pistol, let alone shoot the pistol until empty? I mean, if you were armed security or a drug dealer or gangbanger type, I could see the benefit of a few more rounds in a mag considering the higher potential for a prolonged shootout.

TTv2 said:

How often outside of a warzone does a civilian going about their day find himself in a situation where they need to draw pistol, let alone shoot the pistol until empty? I mean, if you were armed security or a drug dealer or gangbanger type, I could see the benefit of a few more rounds in a mag considering the higher potential for a prolonged shootout.

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I did it last fall out at the hunting cabin, the threats were snakes not bad-guys, but a rattle snake a five feet with an empty gun gets your attention. Capacity is not everything but it should not be ignored either.

mokin said:

I don't know about an 8mm but TTv2 is selling me on the 32 NAA.

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I'm doing my best getting the word out on .32 NAA. It's kind of hopeless tho because until someone other than NAA makes a production pistol in the caliber, there's going to be no demand by the ammo industry to make ammo for it and anything involving a new or niche cartridge needs both to work.

The number one thing that would greatly help the .32 NAA is if reloading companies would make die sets for them on a semi regular basis and price them around $50 a set, not the $300 for a custom set.

This thread is more focused on duty size or full size pistols, and the .32 NAA would be great in a longer barrel, but where it excels the most is LCP sized pistols and for me, I'm not a person who is putting 500 rds thru my LCP every year, maybe 200 a year because when I bring the LCP to the range, I only put 4 mags thru it at a time as any more than that it hurts too much. Thus, my point is I don't care if .32 NAA were to cost $20 a box, I'm not shooting so much of it that the extra cost of it over .380 makes it unaffordable.

For larger pistols where people are shooting 200 rds in an hour, they won't even entertain the thought of an ammo that costs 40 cents a round that's not as simple as 9mm is to reload.

Well, the Austro-Hungarian army wanted an 8mm automatic pistol cartridge pistol back around 1907: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8mm_Roth–Steyr

It was not as powerful as 9mm Luger. In fact, I think (on the basis of no engineering knowledge at all) that it would have been possible to make a large blowback pistol for it, like the FN 1903 (think of the Colt 1903 .32 automatic scaled up to 80% of the size of a Colt 1911). Its kinetic energy was similar to the 9mm Browning long that the FN 1903 was designed for, anyway. It seems to have about 30% more kinetic energy than 7.65mm French Long (290 ft/lbs vs 220 ft/lbs).

Nowadays it would be possible to make a compact locked breech pistol for it, like the various pocket 32s and 380s scaled up a bit, and with somewhat more kinetic energy to work with.

I have no idea why someone would actually bother to do that in order to shave 1mm off the bullet diameter. Particularly because of the expense of designing useful expanding bullets for it. It would have to be sold like a $2,500 wristwatch; something very cool because it's very expensive and exclusive. It might or might not have practical advantages, but there are people who like things other people can't have.

OTOH, High Point could offer a gun in it to the lower end of the market by going the big blowback route.