First the FBI didn't abandon the .38 it remained as authorized backup.
Second I know the Morristown KY PD followed suit and bought 1076s
Is the age of the .40 S&W (and maybe .357 SIG) over?
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Second I know the Morristown KY PD followed suit and bought 1076s
crestoncowboy
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. Soooo...... is it good for bearThe 357 sig is dead. Fork in it.... done.
SIG doesn't even list a gun in their own caliber. It's that dead. they have 10mm/45/9mm etc etc. But not even their own creation.
Glock on the other hand is still holding out hope and listing the GAP
mcb
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You know, now that you mention it, I was wondering why the .38Spl disappeared completely after the FBI stopped buying them and adopted the Smith & Wesson Model 1076 in 10mmAuto in 1990. I just wish SOMEONE would make a snub-nosed .38Spl revolver for concealed carry. If only...
It would be willing to bet the number of 38 Special J-frame has remained relatively constant since 1990 but I bet the number of Model 10, Model 19, Model 64 etc has plummeted since 1990. The 38 Special J-frame is still a popular BUG for LEO and non-LEO users. There are vanishingly few LEO agency's issuing 38 Special duty guns though. The 38 Special lives on because if found a specialty niche not because it is still seen as a valid duty or primary carry cartridge. To try to argue the 38 Special is still as popular today as it was in the 1980's would be hard to support with any real world data.
I would also point out that selecting a cartridge for your own personal defense has some different constraints and compromises placed on it then an agency trying to pick one cartridge for their entire work force. Certainly there a lot of overlap but there are unique constraints they don't share too. With an agency the politics and economics can have as much bearing on these decision as shoot-ability and terminal effects. The individual can make choices that a more general population might not be able to accept. etc.
And anytime I see a good heated caliber debate I am reminded of two thoughts.
First, if one of the two cartridges in the caliber war was demonstrably better than the other cartridge we would not be having the debate. (ie 22 Short vs 45 ACP is an infrequent caliber war).
Second, I have seen/read about enough real world encounters I will take the person with the J-frame that trains/practice hard over the person with the high-capacity tactical-Tupperware or super expensive hand polished all steel Browning design that think their fancy gun mean they don't need to train. In the overwelming number of encounters its the Indian not the arrow that really maters.
-ramblin'
Do you believe that the ability to shoot a 9 more effectively than a .40 is a function of how often one shoots?
Absolutely the more you practice recoil control the better you get and the less difference there will be to a point where most people of average strength shooting a well designed duty size 40 the difference will be negligible.
The idea that the "switch" has been "money driven" does not follow from th FBI recommendation.
Again: the Army gave fre rain to the offerors.
Your personal doubt regarding that subject is not an objective criticism of the FBI report.
That conclusion has not all limited to the FBI report. It has been widely observed, and those observations have been widely publicized.
They may seem counter-intuitive to those who have not actually made such observations and who compare an expanded .40 or .45 bullet with an expanded 9mm.
But we ar not talking about holes drilled in plate stock
This has been covwred here at some length in the past, and some of our posters have been good enough to take the time to share their experiences ,and further, to describe how permanent would channels made by different bullets compare.
Those who missed that "missed the first part to the class", so to speak.
They will have to make up the study on their own.
Nope.
Hand strength is much less important in this than the momentum of the bullet and the other ejecta and the mass of the firearm.
mcb
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The practical shooting sports world sort of says differently. If you remove the scoring advantage for shooting higher recoiling handguns everyone switched to 9mm (minimum legal cartridge in most of these sports). Yes the speed difference between 40S&W and 9mm for most competitors is small but they are real and measurable with at timer across all shooting skill levels.
You tired to describe it.
I arrived there due to tow things: experience in training (in a course upon by a Texas concern) and the FBI's conclusions.
I encourage everyone to avail themselves of quality training.
I do not think that The FBI training Academy has ever attempted to "market" anything to me.
Regardless, what I say and what I so can have had nothing to do the recent availability of surplus .40 caliber pistols on the market.
That has been due to decisions at the agency level--for many, many agencies.
Frankly, I don't know how many civilian shooters have been influenced by any of this. Few take training, and far fewer take the time to research the literature on this subject.
Some years ago, when I was trying to sell my SR-9c, one prospective buyer turned it down and oped tor an SR-40c.
He was convinced that the greater recoil, and the more impressive hits on plates, would somehow translate into greater "knock-down power" in defensive shooting
mcb
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Most of the Open Division shoots 165 PF 9mm.
The fact is that if you take the PF scoring advantage away everyone will change to the lower power factor. Why? Because recoil slows you down.
Do you believe that 9mm and 40 are immune to Newton's third law?
WrongHanded
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Sorry I don't have time to repeatedly quote you and address every little point you're trying to make. I'll just sum it up.
Yes, you have been marketed to. And yes, you have advocated for what's been marketed to you. But this isn't about you specifically. I simply used you as an example.
It's about all those people who've followed along just like you have. Who've heard what they wanted to hear because it sounded good to them. Namely that a sub-compact gun in a 9mm is a fine choice, because it carries more ammo than one chambered for a larger cartridge and has less recoil, and the 9mm is "just as good" at terminal wounding as those other cartridges. And then they've perpetuated the idea that the 9mm is just as good and therefore better than other more powerful cartridges. This has happened. In some cases for profit, and in others to try and justify stepping down in cartridge power and/or size and capacity of firearm.
Whilst I do care that people false claim (or just assume) that the FBI re-adopting the 9mm as some kind of evidence that it is "just as good as X", I don't care that the FBI switched back. Nor do I care that others are making this switch. But when we approach the topic of why .40 and .357 Sig are declining in popularity what I wrote above is a major component of the issue. The crowd is following the flow, and convincing themselves and others that it's the right choice. Whether or not it is the right choice for each one of them is not for me to say. But that is what is happening.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I think you just answered the question: “Is the age of the.40S&W over?”
No. Just as the age of the .38Spl continues, despite not one LEA issuing a .38Spl, currently and for several decades previous, the age of the .40S&W won’t be “over” until it has no market demand, no consumer support, and no useful purpose. I think we can say absolutely the age of the long bow is over.
WrongHanded
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I'm kind of interested to see if Glock moves the G31, 32 and 33 to the Gen 5 design. When I began search for a G33 6 months or so ago, I was somewhat concerned that I'd end up with a Gen 5 or nothing at all. Fortunately, I did find a Gen 4 a week ago.
The .40 will continue. Whether or not the .357 Sig does, may heavily depend on Glock at this point. Or aftermarket barrel production. I think Speer and Federal will continue producing .357 Sig defensive ammo for as long as people keep buying it.
mcb
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My point was simply you can shoot lower recoil handguns faster and this is born out in competition. Once you remove the scoring bonus for shooting more recoil everyone move down to the minimum power factor. The only reason Major dominates the Limited division is the scoring bonus.
You can shoot Major with 9mm/357 in Revolver but you are limited to 6-shooter then.
mcb
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How many 9mm's does Glock offer?
The argument is not the 40S&W is dead its that it in in a fairly strong decline that could lead to it death. Sig has completely drop 40S&W from their product line.
WrongHanded
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mcb
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I agree the age of the 40S&W is not over but it is in steep decline, its hard to argue otherwise. If the age of the 38 Special continues then so does the age of the long bow. There is still a fairly healthy if very small number of people making and using long bows in competition and hunting. There was a time when 38 Special was vying to be one of the most used handgun cartridges around (for LEO and self defense) that is no longer the case by a long shot. 40S&W it headed that same direction. 40 S&W is not dead but is rapidly loosing its contender status if its decline continues.
mcb
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Show me a handgun company that offers more 40S&W models than 9mm Models.
WrongHanded
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crestoncowboy
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Glock won't drop the sig. Everyone else will/has I believe. Glock even made the 10mm all the way through the years when nobody else did. Maybe kimber didn't stop and tanfoglio but they were pretty scarce and unavailable. I never saw the day I couldn't go buy a Glock 20 or 29. And that chambering was far closer to the grave that. .40 ever will be.. They still make the 45 GAP. I believe it's because there is so much commonality that they can just make a pile of mags and barrels once a year and never run out. Or maybe because dropping something you made doesn't bode well for "perfection". But either way they don't drop much. If anything They still make entrenching tools and knives too.
Sig dropping their own 357 sig chambering is pretty telling though.
mcb
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My point was 40S&W market share is slipping and we can see this across all the manufactures. They have all reduced their 40S&W offerings and are introducing less new 40S&W offering with Sig being an extreme example.
WrongHanded
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