Anyone build a "other" ar-15?

This conversation makes me glad to live in a gun friendly state like hawaii.......

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I am already confused, and have nothing useful to add besides "go gettem!"

troy fairweather said:

I think other is still different from firearm.

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In NY or in the eyes of the ATF, have a link?

troy fairweather said:

Varminter basically explained it best, these are pretty much a pistol ar but with a forgrip and are over 26" so it's a other .

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Yeah i got the basic build parameters....its just how the rules are viewed and applied that spins my head.....
Some one somewhere is writing rules that basically, but in a very convoluted way say "DONT!"
Then other folks are basically, but in a very convoluted way saying "BITE ME!" (not the choice of words is usually use)


Fun to watch from the outside.....just hard to understand all the comings and goings....

I only know of “other” being used in “any other weapons”.

Did find this though.

https://www.walkertaylorlaw.com/post/aow-loophole-closed


And this, you most certainly wouldn’t want to sling it under a coat.

A "Stripped" lower should always be marked as "other" when sold. You are free to do whatever you like with it that's NFA legal.

You can build it as a rifle then switch to a pistol, or a pistol and switch to a rifle as many times as you desire.
If you ever sold it, it would be sold as whatever configuration you sell it in.

GunnyUSMC said:

I thought it was 27”. But I could be wrong.

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That might be the case with certain state laws.

Yes as stated, a pistol can have any length barrel per federal law. As always, check your state laws first.

The 26" OAL comes into effect when determining if it is a rifle or classified as "other" or "firearm". To meet the federal definition of a rifle. it must have a barrel at least 16" OA: AND the Over all length of the rifle MUST be over 26". And yes I have seen "other" and "firearm" used interchangeably. AOW refers to Any Other Weapon which is a different class of NFA on its own.

With the classification of "other" or "firearm" it can have a barrel shorter than 16" OAL or 18" OAL for shotguns, but the OAL MUST be over 26". That is how shotguns such as the Mossberg Shockwave and Remington Tac14 are legal and also how AR's with no stock and a vertical fore grip are legal, they have an OAL over 26". They con not have a shoulder stock attached though since the barrels are shorter than 16" or 18" for shotguns.

Also correct that stripped receivers or even complete lowers by themselves should always transfer as "other" on the 4473. An AR does not become a pistol, rifle or other until a barreled upper is attached.

IF the AR is first built as a rifle then it absolutely must remain a rifle. If it is built as a pistol first then it is legal to change it to a rifle and then back to a pistol as long as it is always in a legal form. The Thompson Center case clarifies all of this.

troy fairweather said:

I think other is still different from firearm.

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It’s not - “other” isn’t a thing anywhere except a 4473. Neither the NFA or ATF have an “other” classification. ATF and the NFA both have “Firearm” classifications.

See the bottom line of page 2 from the determination letter provided above - a firearm not designed to be fired by the use of a single hand, having an overall length exceeding 26”, and is not actually concealed on one’s person (AND not having a buttstock, which would then define it as a rifle), is defined as a “Firearm”.

My 10.5” with a Magpul UBR receiver extension exceeds 26”. A 12” barrel certainly gets you there, but a 10.5” or 11.5” will typically get there. I SBR’d mine, but it can be a pistol, SBR, title 1 rifle, or Firearm (with vert foregrip).

troy fairweather said:

Sixfivearms have the 12" 6 arc barrels I'm thinking of going with that, I think it was you that posted velocity numbers for a short barrel 6 arc. Believe the numbers weren't to bad. For a buffer tube I'll probably just use a mili spec carbine tube.

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For practical use a 12" barrel would be great, and you will easily be over 26" OAL. I want a 12" 6mm ARC!

Varminterror said:

It’s not - “other” isn’t a thing anywhere except a 4473. Neither the NFA or ATF have an “other” classification. ATF and the NFA both have “Firearm” classifications.

See the bottom line of page 2 from the determination letter provided above - a firearm not designed to be fired by the use of a single hand, having an overall length exceeding 26”, and is not actually concealed on one’s person (AND not having a buttstock, which would then define it as a rifle), is defined as a “Firearm”.

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100% correct on the terminology . But the term "other" gets used so much that the term has stuck. I'm sure that people are getting the term "other" from the 4473. I used both terms in my last post since there is confusion.

Now on barrel lengths. I have found that a 10.5" barrel and a standard pistol buffer tube will NOT get you to the magical 26" OAL, it will be just under that. Remember, AR barrels are measured from the bolt face to the end of the barrel unless the muzzle device is permanently attached (pinned and welded). Also any fold adaptor on a pistol or "firearm" is measured in the folded position. That is part of what got Franklin Armory in trouble.

Another thing to remember, with any gun classified as a "firearm", it instantly becomes an AOW if you conceal it. An AR "firearm" is a little hard to conceal under a coat compared to a Shockwave or Tac13.

IMHO, state legal issues aside, pistol braces are the best thing since sliced bread. I never expected a 10.5" AR to be one of my favorite guns but it sure as hell is. Don't go any shorter. I've tried several different braces and so far, the SBA3 is my favorite.

This thread intrigues me. Not that I'm interested in building one, but now I'm curious as to what I could get away with here. There's an LGS near me that specializes in ARs here, I'm sure they'd have the straight dope on it.

CraigC said:

IMHO, state legal issues aside, pistol braces are the best thing since sliced bread. I never expected a 10.5" AR to be one of my favorite guns but it sure as hell is. Don't go any shorter. I've tried several different braces and so far, the SBA3 is my favorite.

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Nice, but unfortunately it looks like it "goes all the way to 11" on the proposed ATF worksheet.

All depends on your receiver extension length.

The standard pistol buffer tube that came with my SB15 brace and the pistol buffer tube that came with my dedicated CMMG 9mm lower were too short to make 26" OAL with my Rock River 10.5" barrel. And on my other pistol in 223 with a standard pistol buffer tube was also under 26" OAL. Now the A5 or Kak Super Sig buffer tube are long enough with a 10.5" barrel to reach the 26" OAL.

troy fairweather said:

Does anyone make a brace to fit in a A2 rifle buffer tube?

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Not that I am aware of.

And you have to remember that as of right now, The ATF considers any brace with a length of pull over 13 1/2" as a shoulder stock.

The easiest way to make a "firearm" is to use a standard pistol buffer tube and a barrel at least 11.5" in length to get over 26" OAL.

The headache, in my view, is the reality that “concealed on ones’ person” may be relatively subjective. If I have an AR pistol in my backpack while carrying it to and from the range, no issues. If I have the same firearm, in a “Firearm” configuration in my backpack - only by adding a vertical foregrip - then it becomes an AOW, and I’d be committing a federal felony.

For me, there’s no value in a “Firearm” denomination. I’m glad to keep AR pistols and SBR-15’s around, but I’ve never been 1) so enthralled with a vertical foregrip nor 2) so insistent on thumbing my nose at “the man” to ever truly care about purposefully building a “Firearm.”

But then again, I live in a state where I can own a pistol, rifle, or SBR, and I can walk into a shop and buy anything I want, cash and carry, without even a NICS check, as facilitated by my CCHL...

The whole part about concealing a "firearm" turns it into an AOW has never made sense. I had one AR setup as a "firearm" but have since changed it to a rifle. The only "firearm" that I currently own is my Mossberg Shockwave that will remain in its stock configuration, I will not add a brace or for grip of any kind to it.

I can see the allure of building and AR into a "firearm" in states that allow it but do not allow AR rifles or AR pistols.