11 or 13 rounds .380 = is that a game changer ?

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Basic math tells s that with a 30% hit rate, 7 shots give us a 67% chance of scoring two hits, vs 47% with five shots. The choice is up to the user. With a heavily clothed attacker with an arm held out between himself and the defender, the penetration of the .38 might prove critically important.
I'm pretty good at math and have a very good understanding of terminal performance and like I said MEH as in I don't see a clear advantage due to power or capacity.
You seem to put an awfully lot of faith in a second hit given how little you have in the first one.
 
Was doing something else earlier today, and these photos came about. Some of which will be germane to our discussion.
This is a Colt Gov't 380 on a SIG 365X
Govt on Sig.jpg
Seven of 9x17 versus 12 of 9x19

And a SIG 365X on a Colt Officer's
SIG on Officer's.jpg
12 9x19 versus 6 .45acp
The whole rogues gallery:
Rogue's Gallery.jpg
In the end, we are, in some ways, splitting hairs of mere millimeters. I've concealed all of these (ok, not the AO 1911A1 specifically, but a similar-sized 1911). My reasons--and methods--varied for each; but, I'm not entirely sure any one of those was "better."
Would I look at a SIG 365 in 380, maybe; same way I'd look closely at the new LCP Max. I'm not selling anything to go get one, though.
 
I pocket carry a 380 in the summer when wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I like the idea of a 10 round mag for the LCP Max. Will have to check one out when the craze ends. Not much available in my area right now.
 
Doesn't do anything for me. Is it truly pocketable or is it a brick in a big pocket? I prefer a belt holster for the 10+ semis. YMMV. If it is a belt gun, then 9mm is fine. I do have to confess that I have carried a G42 or SW 432 on my belt in a recent wave of horrible, old toot back problems. With the former, I had two extra mags on the other side in a nice Blade Tech mag pouch. Back is getting there and back to the Glock 26.

As far as the multiple attacker story. It is rare but it happens. So you make the decision. If you choose not to worry about that, pontificating on those who take the rarer risk into account is not impressive.
I also prefer a belt holster, so for me the extra ounces of a p365 in 9mm even with the 12 round magazine is not a problem. I'm always more comfortable with service calibers.
 
Depends on the gun. I've always felt that 10+1 was enough for me to be comfortable with. Not 380, but I have a Sig 365 in 9mm that takes 10 or 12 round magazines. Having the 2 extra rounds doesn't feel like a game changer for me, but the longer grip when the 12 round mags are in the gun helps me shoot it more accurately. So that is a game changer. I like the option of using 10 round mags when concealment is paramount, and the 12 round mags when it is less important.
 
I also prefer a belt holster, so for me the extra ounces of a p365 in 9mm even with the 12 round magazine is not a problem. I'm always more comfortable with service calibers.

Yep , belt carry .. I like my Glock 23 or 27 ,
40 S&W 180gr HST makes me feel warm and Cozy ..
D35F35D9-346A-4D02-B903-DE98BF287497.jpeg 6F17104D-F759-4687-BF7B-13D96A39D8EA.jpeg
 
It definitely changes the game of the discussion about these things….slightly.
Yep … people comparing a pocket hi-cap 380 to belt worn mini 9’s
If I choose to carry on the belt might as well be a real pistol in a real caliber :rofl:
Maybe my Glock 20 :rofl:
 
I'm always more comfortable with service calibers.
Anyone in a defensive situation would prefer to score hits on an attacker with a service caliber.

Anyone who can carry a pistol with which one can reliably do that would be well served to carry it.

But the rapidity of fire that may be needed in a defensive situation makes the use of a small, light pistol in a service caliber an iffy proposition.

So, it depends on the gun.

Forget shooting groups at the range. Go and participate in, and/or observe, a real defensive training course. If they offer an El Presidente drill, or a variation thereon, the purpose of which is simply to measure and increase shooting proficiency, compare the performance of shooters using full-size M&P pistols , Ruger American Pistols, and Sig duty pistols with those using smaller and lighter pistols in the same calibers.

You will surely note that the performance of the shooters, becomes progressively worse as the sizes and weights of the pistols come down. It is not a matter of whether the shooters think they "can handle" the increased recoil, it is about whether they score hits rapidly enough with a gun that recoils more severely.

In such a drill, and in a real use of force situation, most people will do better with a full-size duty pistol--as Buckeye puts it, "a real pistol in a real caliber".

but most of us prefer to not carry duty pistols concealed all day. We compromise by carrying smaller pistols.

Large numbers of shooters who have not participated in realistic training and have not thought in terms of a realistic balance of speed and accuracy have been selecting smaller and smaller pistols, having convinced themselves that that "service caliber" chambering will provide the effectiveness that they need.

The Springfield XDS 9 is a case in point. The original with the 3.3 inch barrel was popular. When they introduced a version with a 4 inch barrel, Trainers and reviewers raved about how much more shootable it was. But due to lackluster sales, it was discontinued.

I carried the 4 inch version. I would not carry the smaller one.

I have a Ruger American Compact pistol Good gun--but I would not want one of their little 9s.

Same with Messrs. Smith y Wesson. I'm okay with the EZ 9, but not with their small 9s.

Yes, I too am more comfortable with service calibers--in the right guns.

I recently decided to acquire a much smaller and lighter pistol, primarily for backup.

I chose the LCP Max.
 
.380 is a marginal caliber. Magazine capacity doesn't make up for its deficiencies (adequate penetration and/or mild wound effects).

I've attached a link to a video in which an EDP is hit by 12 rounds. He's unaffected until bullet number 12 hits and disrupts his spinal cord, causing flaccid paralysis, and he immediately collapses to the pavement, where we watch him finally start reacting to the effects of hemorrhaging from the other 11 bullets (he's gasping for air because internal bleeding is causing his lungs to collapse as well as the effects of sucking chest wounds).

Warning--this media shows a person getting shot fatally at close range. Don't watch it if that's going to bother you.


 
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You state that .380 is a marginal caliber, yet show a video that demonstrates that shot placement was the thing that stopped the perpetrator?

.380 is a marginal caliber. Magazine capacity doesn't make up for its deficiencies (adequate penetration and/or mild wound effects).

I've attached a link to a video in which an EDP is hit by 12 rounds. He's unaffected until bullet number 12 hits and disrupts his spinal cord, causing flaccid paralysis, and he immediately collapses to the pavement, where we watch him finally start reacting to the effects of hemorrhaging from the other 11 bullets (he's gasping for air because internal bleeding is causing his lungs to collapse as well as the effects of sucking chest wounds).

 
I have for too many decades espoused the belief that only at least a .9MM was as small as I would go for a S/D gun.

Even as a BUG goes too.

That was when all you had was maybe 7 or 8 rounds of ball ammo,at best.

Along came the Beretta / Browning BDA in .380 with 13 rounds.

Now it is not a pocket,BUG or small gun.

So I let that go .

NOW comes the Ruger LCP Maxx ,.380 with either 10 round magazines [ or allowed by state or status ,the 12 round magazine ].

As for me,and I am POSITIVE I will get arguments [ yes,I got money bet on it ! ].

I see this as a game changer,I see this as a GREAT BUG,or third gun [ yes ,many do that besides me ] and even as an "around the house,cause I am not armed gun"

Please feel free to tell me I am wrong,in your not so humble opinions !

btw = I turn 74 in 2 months and I am as stubborn as you can get,BUT the ability to change and learn is obvious by my willingness to see this pistol as a game changer.

And btw,mine is enroute to my local FFL dealer as I penn this.

I've never been a .380 guy but the Ruger LCP Max has me thinking hard. Especially with the better ammo today.

I think it's a great idea
 
Triggernosis writes:

You state that .380 is a marginal caliber, yet show a video that demonstrates that shot placement was the thing that stopped the perpetrator?

Also, any situation resembling that one would have been easy for most any of us to avoid, or self-extract from. The cop, bound by duty to essentially instigate, and continue escalation of, the encounter, could not. The takeways from that video include that shot placement matters, and that, if you're obligated to stay in the situation (and force the attacker to as well by not allowing him to flee), the odds that the situation will become more desperate, and require more fire, will increase. This guy knew he wasn't going to be allowed to simply walk away.
 
I bought the LCPII and just cannot fall in love with it, don't like the platform, and it's inconsistent cycling and hold open feature. Also if & when it does hold open on last round fired, returns to battery as soon as mag is dropped. It's going to be sold/traded for something else in the neat future.
 
So, it depends on the gun
... and the shooter.

The LC9s was smaller than I ever planned to carry, but back woes dictated a lighter gun and I remained committed to 9mm. It's all about practice.

In four days surgery will, hopefully, enable me to again carry my pistol size of confidence.
 
....I remained committed to 9mm. It's all about practice.
If you are measuring group size on a target, yes.

If you need very rapid controlled fire to land several hits very quickly on a target that is moving at 180 inches per second, no.

It's all about physics.
 
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