Court ruling on dealer handgun sales to 18-year-olds

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Which part is disturbing to you, and why so?

I’m a parent of kids coming of age currently. I was pretty dumb and naive when I was 18. There are reasons one political party is pushing to have voting age reduced to 16.

My kids are 15 and 11. I currently reject patronizing generic attitudes directed towards all teens just same as I did when I was a teen. My self-assessment of my 18 year old self is a bit different than yours. At the 14-18 age range, I was carrying a handgun regularly and as much as legally possible. In the calendar year I turned 18, I finished my Eagle Scout, was Valedictorian at my HS, and started engineering school on a 4-year Army ROTC scholarship.
 
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I've owned firearms since I was 10 (although technically my parents bought them) this was well before 1968. There are some that would not be mature enough to own firearms at any age. I'm not sure age, by itself, is a reliable measure of maturity or responsibility.
 
My kids are 15 and 11. I currently reject patronizing generic attitudes directed towards all teens just same as I did when I was a teen. My self-assessment of my 18 year old self is a bit different than yours. At the 14-18 age range, I was carrying a handgun regularly and as much as legally possible. In the calendar year I turned 18, I finished my Eagle Scout, was Valedictorian at my HS, and started engineering school on a 4-year Army ROTC scholarship.

It’s not about you or me, or your kids or mine. The fact that we are here talking says that we and our kids are probably all good. But look around in Chicago, rural Tennessee, etc. at a whole bunch of kids that aren’t doing so well.
 
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Screen grab of the PDF file. Dunno if someone can looks it up by case number? It was linked in a WSJ article but I could only download the whole 141 page file.
 
It’s not about you or me, or your kids or mine. The fact that we are here talking says that we and our kids are probably all good. But look around in Chicago, rural Tennessee at a whole bunch of kids that aren’t doing so well.

So because of the examples of places like Chicago and rural Tennessee, we should decide to label them all as desfunctional idiots and raise the age of adulthood to 25? I was promoted to CPT at 25 and worked with E6's who were 25- I think we might have been just a bit offended if told we were "just becoming adults" at the time.
 
So because of the examples of places like Chicago and rural Tennessee, we should decide to label them all as desfunctional idiots and raise the age of adulthood to 25? I was promoted to CPT at 25 and worked with E6's who were 25- I think we might have been just a bit offended if told we were "just becoming adults" at the time.

Enough chest thumping already. I enlisted when I was 17. I was qualified and licensed as an instructor to teach others how to operate a $200 million nuclear reactor, US Navy, when I was 20. You know, before I could buy a beer. So what? I worked for a living before I went to college and got my engineering degree at 28.

Your option to raising the from age 18 to 25? Do nothing, or convince their parents to do a better job?
 
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Link: https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/HirschfeldvATF.pdf

Snip:
RICHARDSON, Circuit Judge:When do constitutional rights vest? At 18 or 21? 16 or 25? Why not 13 or 33? In the law, a line must sometimes be drawn. But there must be a reason why constitutional rights cannot be enjoyed until a certain age. Our nation’s most cherished constitutional rights vest no later than 18. And the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms is no different.Plaintiffs seek an injunction and a declaratory judgment that several federal laws and regulations that prevent federally licensed gun dealers from selling handguns to any18-, 19-, or 20-year-old violate the Second Amendment. We first find that 18-year-olds possess Second Amendment rights. They enjoy almost every other constitutional right,and they were required at the time of the Founding to serve in the militia and furnish their own weapons. We then ask, as our precedent requires, whether the government has metits burden to justify its infringement of those rights under the appropriate level of scrutiny. To justify this restriction, Congress used disproportionate crime rates to craft over-inclusive laws that restrict the rights of overwhelmingly law-abiding citizens. And in doing so, Congress focused on purchases from licensed dealers without establishing those dealers as the source of the guns 18- to 20-year-olds use to commit crimes. So we hold that the challenged federal laws and regulations are unconstitutional under the Second Amendment. Despite the weighty interest in reducing crime and violence, we refuse to relegate either the Second Amendment or 18- to 20-year-olds to a second-class status.

1. Background
Prospective handgun buyers sued the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives seeking an injunction and a declaratory judgment that federal statutes prohibiting Federal Firearm Licensed Dealers from selling handguns and handgun ammunition to 18-, 19-, and 20-year-olds (and the federal regulations implementing those statutes) violate the Second Amendment. See18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1), (c)(1); 27 C.F.R. §§ 478.99(b)(1), 478.96(b), 478.124(a).

Nineteen-year-old Natalia Marshall had good reason to seek protection. She had been forced to obtain a protective order against her abusive ex-boyfriend who, since the issuance of the order, had been arrested for unlawful possession of a firearm and controlled substances. He was released on bail but never came to court, leading to the issuance of a capias for his arrest. Along with the threat from her ex-boyfriend, Marshall works as an equestrian trainer, often finding herself in remote rural areas where she interacts with unfamiliar people. Having grown up training with guns, she believes that a handgun’s ease of carrying, training, and use makes it the most effective tool for her protection from these and other risks. But because Marshall was 18 when she tried to buy a handgun, a federal law prevented her from buying from a licensed dealer who would perform a background check to verify that she was not a felon or other prohibited person. She preferred using a licensed dealer because they tend to have a wider supply, a good reputation, and a guarantee
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1 Plaintiffs also contend that the laws violate the equal-protection component of the Fifth Amendment’s Due Process Clause. Because the laws violate the Second Amendment, we need not resolve that question.

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that the guns have not been used, stolen, or tampered with. She is now 19 and remains unable to buy a handgun from a federally licensed dealer for self-defense.The other Plaintiff, Tanner Hirschfeld, tried to buy a handgun from a licensed dealer and was denied because he was only 20. But he has since turned 21 and is no longer affected by these laws. His claims are therefore moot. See Craig v. Boren, 429 U.S. 190, 192 (1976). Marshall, however, is not yet 21, so this appeal may still proceed.
A. The challenged laws In 1964, Congress, concerned about increasing gun violence, began a “field investigation and public hearings.” S. Rep. No. 88-1340, at 1 (1964). Congressconcluded, among other things, “that the ease with which” handguns could be acquired by “juveniles without the knowledge or consent of their parents or guardians . . . is a significant factor in the prevalence of lawlessness and violent crime in the United States.” Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, Pub. L. No. 90-351, tit. IV, § 901(a)(2), 82 Stat. 197, 225; see, e.g., S. Rep. No. 90-1097, at 77 (1968).
Statistics, testimony from law enforcement, and other evidence showed that a large portion of violent crime and its escalation stemmed from minors with guns.2 Based on the testimony from Internal
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2 The legislative record established that “juveniles account for some 49 percent of the arrests for serious crimes in the United States and minors account for 64 percent of the total arrests in this category.” S. Rep. No. 90-1097, at 77 (1968). “[M]inors under the age of 21 years accounted for 35 percent of the arrests for the serious crimes of violence including murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault” and 21 percent of the arrests for murder. 114 Cong. Rec. 12,279, 12,309 (1968) (statement of Sen. Dodd, Chairman, S. Subcomm. on Juvenile Delinquency). Congress found “a causal relationship between the easy availability of firearms other than a rifle or shotgun and juvenile and youthful criminal behavior.” Pub. L. No. 90-351, tit. IV, § 901(a)(6), 82 Stat. at 225–26. Federal officials

Pg: 5 of 1416 Revenue Service Commissioner Sheldon Cohen, Congress concluded that juveniles obtained these guns from licensed dealers who sell to “emotionally immature, or thrill-bent juveniles and minors prone to criminal behavior.” Pub. L. No. 90-351, tit. IV, § 901(a)(6), 82 Stat. at 226; see Federal Firearms Act: Hearings Before the H. Comm. on Ways and Means, 89th Cong. 31 (1965) (testimony of Sheldon S. Cohen) (explaining that “importers, manufacturers, and dealers who operate under licenses issued by the Federal Government” are responsible for putting firearms in the hands of juveniles). They also found that “the handgun is the type of firearm that is principally used in the commission of serious crime” and “the most troublesome and difficult factor in the unlawful use of firearms.” S. Rep. No. 89-1866, at 4–7 (1966). Seeking only to curtail the “clandestine” purchase of weapons by juveniles without their parents’ knowledge, Congress sought to permit the ownership and use of firearms with parental permission.Id.at 58–59; S. Rep. No. 90-1097, at 79; 114 Cong. Rec. 12,279, 12,309 (1968) (statement of Sen. Thomas J. Dodd). To address these concerns, Congress passed the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, Pub. L. No. 90-351, 82 Stat. 197. The preamble declares: [T]he ease with which any person can acquire firearms other than a rifle or shotgun (including criminals, juveniles without the knowledge or consent of their parents or testified that “[t]he greatest growth of crime today is in the area of young people, juveniles and young adults” and that “[t]he easy availability of weapons makes their tendency toward wild, and sometimes irrational behavior that much more violent, that much more deadly.” Federal Firearms Act: Hearings Before the Subcomm. to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the S. Comm. on the Judiciary, 90th Cong. 57 (1967) (testimony of Sheldon S. Cohen). Law enforcement officers from New York City, Los Angeles, St. Louis, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Atlanta provided Congress with “statistics documenting the misuse of firearms by juveniles and minors,” which took on “added significance” because the “lawful acquisition of concealable firearms by these persons was prohibited by statute” in each of those cities. S. Rep. No. 89-1866, at 58–60.

Pg: 6 of 1417 guardians, narcotics addicts, mental defectives, armed groups who would supplant the functions of duly constituted public authorities, and others whose possession of such weapons is similarly contrary to the public interest) is a significant factor in the prevalence of lawlessness and violent crime in the United States. Id. § 901(a)(2), 82 Stat. at 225.The Act prohibited licensed dealers from selling handguns to anyone under age 21 but permitted the sale of shotguns and rifles to those individuals. Id.§ 902, 82 Stat. at 230. Later that year, Congress amended the law to prohibit licensed dealers from selling any firearm to those under 18 and maintained the ban on the sale of handguns for 18-, 19-, and20-year-olds. Gun Control Act of 1968, Pub. L. No. 90-618, tit. I, § 102, 82 Stat. 1213, 1218.3 The section, which has remained unchanged since 1968, reads:
[It is] unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age. Id. (codified at 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1)). The implementing regulation, 27 C.F.R. § 478.99(b)(1), contains similar language. The law did not eliminate any age group’s
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3 The provisions of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 cited here never took effect. That Act, passed June 19, 1968, would not have taken effect until 180 days later, or December 16, 1968. Pub. L. No. 90-351, tit. IV, § 907, 82 Stat. at 235. The Gun Control Act of 1968, passed October 22, 1968, supplanted the relevant sections of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, see Pub. L. No. 90-618, tit. I, § 102, 82 Stat. at 1214, and took effect on December 16, 1968, see id. § 105(a), 82 Stat. at 1226
 
Enough chest thumping already. I enlisted when I was 17. I was qualified and licensed as an instructor to teach others how to operate a $200 million nuclear reactor, US Navy, when I was 20. You know, before I could buy a beer. So what? I worked for a living before I went to college and got my engineering degree at 28.

No we don’t have to raise the age from 18 to 25. Convince their parents to do a better job. Let me know how that works out.

Then I am surprised with that level of responsibility and service, which I applaud, that you feel the way that you do. I am not trying to chest thump, but highlight why blanket distinctions based on age are just as problematic as other discriminatory factors.
 
My kids are 15 and 11. I currently reject patronizing generic attitudes directed towards all teens just same as I did when I was a teen. My self-assessment of my 18 year old self is a bit different than yours. At the 14-18 age range, I was carrying a handgun regularly and as much as legally possible. In the calendar year I turned 18, I finished my Eagle Scout, was Valedictorian at my HS, and started engineering school on a 4-year Army ROTC scholarship.

Then it seems as if you are one of the exceptions, even back then. Your biggest job now is to instill that attitude into not only your offspring, but any other youngster of similar age with whom you have regular contact.
 
The question of maturity and majority is far, far larger than THR probably ought allow.

Justice Richardson's opening sentences probably set it as simply as possible: "When do constitutional rights vest? At 18 or 21? 16 or 25? Why not 13 or 33? In the law, a line must sometimes be drawn. But there must be a reason why constitutional rights cannot be enjoyed until a certain age. Our nation’s most cherished constitutional rights vest no later than 18. And the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms is no different."

There's any level of evidence that human brains require more maturity than ordinary majority presently allows. However, legally, we can make a presumption of "enough" maturity to hold to laws as written.
 
Its a muddy quagmire swampy mess of a topic.

It goes to definition. If the law says, “18” is the age of majority…do not try to those younger as adults. At times, consistency is difficult. A perfect example would be the two girls in DC (I think) who carjacked a man - ultimately to his death - murder. They will be out at 21 (I think). I would prefer a clear and consistently applied law than various shades of grey.
 
They cannot sell to 18-20 year olds yet. The laws are still on the books so until they're repealed, if they're repealed and they urgently need to be, no gun stores can sell handguns to anyone under 21.
 
They cannot sell to 18-20 year olds yet. The laws are still on the books so until they're repealed, if they're repealed and they urgently need to be, no gun stores can sell handguns to anyone under 21.

Nope. That's not the way it works. Once there is a final court decision that a statute is constitutionally infirm, then it becomes without effect. Please refer to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Marbury v Madison.

But at the same time, the Fourth Circuit's decision is still not yet final. The Circuit judges still have the option of an En Banc rehearing and the rules allow for some time for that decision to be reached. Once the court issues its mandate in the case, then the statute is toast, even if not repealed.

I spent the majority of my law enforcement career in California, with California's "Stop and ID" statute sill existing, even though the U.S. Supreme Court had declared it unconstitutional decades earlier. It takes a while for the state legislatures to keep up with the courts, even if the courts move at a glacial pace.
 
Nope. That's not the way it works. Once there is a final court decision that a statute is constitutionally infirm, then it becomes without effect. Please refer to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Marbury v Madison.

But at the same time, the Fourth Circuit's decision is still not yet final. The Circuit judges still have the option of an En Banc rehearing and the rules allow for some time for that decision to be reached. Once the court issues its mandate in the case, then the statute is toast, even if not repealed.

I spent the majority of my law enforcement career in California, with California's "Stop and ID" statute sill existing, even though the U.S. Supreme Court had declared it unconstitutional decades earlier. It takes a while for the state legislatures to keep up with the courts, even if the courts move at a glacial pace.
I misspoke about the "repealing" part. You're right, a repeal by the legislators who passed this BS is not the only option to render the ban null & void. The law is still in effect at this time, so gun stores cannot legally start selling handguns to 18-20 year olds right away just because two judges on a three-judge panel issued an opinion. This will need to be hashed out. Everyone here already knows how this should resolve, but sadly not all judges are on the Constitution's side.
 
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The question of maturity and majority is far, far larger than THR probably ought allow.

Justice Richardson's opening sentences probably set it as simply as possible: "When do constitutional rights vest? At 18 or 21? 16 or 25? Why not 13 or 33? In the law, a line must sometimes be drawn. But there must be a reason why constitutional rights cannot be enjoyed until a certain age. Our nation’s most cherished constitutional rights vest no later than 18. And the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms is no different."

There's any level of evidence that human brains require more maturity than ordinary majority presently allows. However, legally, we can make a presumption of "enough" maturity to hold to laws as written.

I actually took issue with the verbiage there. I agree with the implied sentiment, but the way it reads my mind immediately went to an old friend of the family who was a retired police officer from Bradford England. His daughter was my neighbor, and I will never forget the look of defeat on his face when he reached a given age at which he was no longer eligible to serve in his lifelong role. He said something along the lines of having given his life to his city he was now thrown out on the rubbish pile to rot simply because of a nonsensical number. The verbiage by Justice Richardson seems to imply that if there is a point at which rights automatically become vested then there must also be some magical number at which the rights no longer apply. Thankfully we don’t have such laws in the US but I can absolutely see them coming down the line. If the point of maturity and majority is delineated by law then that same law needs to very plainly state that it remains valid until a persons death or having been deemed mentally incompetent based upon medical diagnosis to allow for things like Alzheimer’s, but not to otherwise infringe just because a person is old and has different views.

I agree it’s bigger than THR, but it’s a legit attack on rights elsewhere and our congressleaches very seldom invent anything new, they just steal from other countries and modify to fit their agendas.
 
Just an observation. When I used to hang out at the local Gun Shop. I always thought is was a bit strange that an 18 year old could come in and be refused a handgun but could walk out with an AK, AR, Semi Auto Shotgun, and ammunition.??
And of course they could be in the Military , sign a contract, vote but could not buy alcohol or that darn handgun??
 
There are both federal and state laws on guns.

This court ruling against the federal 21 age limit for buying a firearm might make 18 the age limit for handgun as well as long gun sales.

States may have age limits on handgun sales and handgun ownership/possession.

I have always been told that the state law governs age limits on possession, not federal law.
 
I actually took issue with the verbiage there.
That's a very legitimate point, and one not often applied nearly often enough to age-related regulations.

But, it's also a confusion, too. Three things are "at play" when legally using age as a metric. One is physical ability and acuity. The other is maturity. The last is one of consent. Each of these are complicated waters to tread within.

I'm middling confident that Justice Richardson was using the notion of legal consent , that being the age when people are considered to be able to understand and accept the responsibility for their legal actions and the consequences. Generally, under the law such Rights only expire when the individual does.

But, it can be easy to conflate such with things like mandatory retirement ages, which are generally linked to physical and/or mental infirmity (and, as generalities are always absurd in the specific, individual, case). I cannot see that argument being inserted here. Which may be an issue with my ability to imagine things.
 
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