Pondering the "magic" caliber.

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SSN Vet

SSN Vet

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I've often thought .357 mag. had a lot going for it as it can be chambered in revolvers and carbines, with respectable ballistics from both (emphasis carbine, not rifle). And I've often thought that a Ruger Camp Carbine style tube mag. autoloader in .357 would hit a sweet spot out there.

So I've been wondering why:
1. There aren't detachable box mag. carbines out there that shoot a more "potent" hand gun round, that could be chambered in a auto-loading pistols (with a more reasonable grip length).
2. There are so few auto-loading hand guns out there that shoot a good carbine round. (The only ones I can think of are the Coonan in .357 mag. and the Auto Mag III in .30 carbine)

Granted, I may be "small minded" in my thinking, but from my perspective AR pistols aren't really pistols and 9mm luger and .45 acp carbines don't cross the "respectable ballistics" threshold.

Rimmed cartridges seem problematic for reliable feeding from a detachable box mag.

And 33 mm appears to be too long for a reasonable grip frame length on an auto-feeding pistol.

I'll nominate 9x23 Win. for consideration... but have never seen a carbine chambered for it.

Curious to hear other's thoughts on the topic.
 
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This is why I own a CZ 52 and looking to customize a PPS.
But I wish there was a similar alternative that could take a longer bullet.
 
Hugger-4641 said:
This is why I own a CZ 52 and looking to customize a PPS.
But I wish there was a similar alternative that could take a longer bullet.
Click to expand...

7.62×25mm Tokarev looks like an interesting round...

I wonder if this is what 357 SIG was modeled after?

I also wonder why the commies switched to 9x18, as that always struck me as a pretty anemic cartridge.
 
@SSN Vet, I think your note about rimmed cartridges explains most of it. As for the rest, it may simply be a small enough market that the manufacturers aren't particularly interested. Otherwise the .357 Sig and the 10MM might both be more popular cartridges.
 
Not to depart from semiauto carbine, but the thought process seems very much akin to the Henry and Winchester rifles in 38-40 and similar cartridges. The market exists for lever guns but not for semiauto… and tube fed clearly works for rimmed guns because tube fed 22s work well enough. Seems very much doable in a gun along the lines of a modern Ruger Deerfield carbine. A 10mm Deerfield carbine or a 10mm Ruger pistol carbine setup sounds absolutely delightful.
 
AK Hunter said:
The 350 Legend has proven it's self to be a great hunting round & they are starting to build revolvers that handle that round.
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At 43 mm case length, I don't think 350 Legend is a candidate for an auto-loading pistol with a reasonable grip size.

But then again, there are those among us that are more well endowed (hand size wise) than others. :eek:
 
SSN Vet said:
This from Wikipedia...."The manufacturer claims a maximum Muzzle velocity of 427 FPS for the Webley"

That might not qualify as "respectable ballistics" :neener:
Click to expand...

That's not right. The original Mk II load (the most used and first smokeless load using chopped cordite) has a muzzle velocity of 600 fps with a 262gr HBRN bullet. I am reloading mine to the same velocity. For WWII they did have a MkVI loading that pushed a 262 FMJ to ~750 fps. It's probably still not respectable ballistics but I like it and would love to have a little carbine chambered in the cartridge.
 
SSN Vet said:
So I've been wondering why:
1. There aren't detachable box mag. carbines out there that shoot a more "potent" hand gun round, that could be chambered in a auto-loading pistols (with a more reasonable grip length).
2. There are so few auto-loading hand guns out there that shoot a good carbine round. (The only ones I can think of are the Coonan in .357 mag. and the Auto Mag III in .30 carbine)
Click to expand...

Reads to me like you're describing the 10mm. I don't have one yet, but the semi-auto pistol/carbine concept is exactly why I want one.
 
SSN Vet said:
7.62×25mm Tokarev looks like an interesting round...

I wonder if this is what 357 SIG was modeled after?

I also wonder why the commies switched to 9x18, as that always struck me as a pretty anemic cartridge.
Click to expand...

The Makarov pistol is cheaper and simpler to produce thanks to it blowback mechanism. Tok was too powerful for a blowback. The 9mm Makarov is indeed very anemic, and the 7.62 Tokarev is far more powerful and effective. But the commies didn’t care about that and considered a handgun as a badge of office and mainly useful for shooting dissidents and deserters in the back or preferably behind the ear.
 
SSN Vet said:
At 43 mm case length, I don't think 350 Legend is a candidate for an auto-loading pistol with a reasonable grip size.

But then again, there are those among us that are more well endowed (hand size wise) than others. :eek:
Click to expand...

They do make it in an AR style pistol with arm brace it should be easily handled.

mcb said:
Who is making a 350 Legend revolver? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Magnum Research is making one.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/925368324/Magnum-Research-BFR-350-Legend-7-5-SS-6-Rds-BFR350L7.htm
 
mcb said:
I want a carbine in 455 Webley... :)

I will show myself out of the thread... :oops:
Click to expand...

Even the Brits made the DeLisle Carbine in .45 ACP.


I figure the Sov Bloc went with the Makarov because it is cheaper and easier to shoot; and they were phasing out their many SMGs in favor of AKs and had no need for a hot pistol round.
 
SSN Vet said:
I wonder if this is what 357 SIG was modeled after?
Click to expand...

It was said that the .357 SIG was meant to give 4" revolver .357 Magnum 125 gr velocity out of an automatic.
Bottlenecked on the .40 head diameter, it fits 9mm/.40 length actions. You could do as well with 9x23 Win or a fast .38 Super, but only in a long action like 1911, G20, or P220.
 
Frankly in todays gun and caliber world I am confident that everything needed would still exist if you let me throw away 1/2 the cartridges as well as close to that in firearms. I think we could all get by just fine on what was available 50 years ago. No reason in my mind to re-invent the wheel. I suppose that may mean I fit into a crowd of one, but I am comfortable there, and I don't spend a lot of energy trying to maximize ballistics in any particular platform.
 
Lots of interesting ideas here. Two cartridges mentioned in particular are the .357 SIG and the 38-40. Both are based on necking down a larger cartridge. Another is the 10mm Auto. Plenty of oomph there. I think it would be a good carbine cartridge. Comparing the three, I wonder about the 9 x 25 Dillon and how it would perform in a carbine. By tweaking it a little so you could load .357 diameter bullets vs. .355 I think you could really expand the versatility. Maybe someone has done it.
 
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