amd6547
Member
Actually, I feel pretty well armed with my Beretta 84F and 14 Underwood +P XTP’s.
11 or 13 rounds .380 = is that a game changer ?
- Thread starter scaatylobo
- Start date
- Status
Buckeye63
Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2018
- Messages
- 2,252
I carry the UW standard pressure XTP , I have been a fan of UW for many moons
Shawn Dodson
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 3,189
Triggernosis writes:
What finally stopped the aggressor was A COMBINATION OF PLACEMENT PLUS ADEQUATE PENETRATION to reach and damage a vital structure. Placement plus penetration are the keys to reliable rapid incapacitation.
With .380 there are tradeoffs. To reliably achieve adequate penetration you have to choose a bullet that produces a milder wound (FMJ or "+P" JHP that expands and shears off the expanded petals (e.g., Hornady XTP)). The "+P" .380 cartridges also increase recoil and affect shootability, especially in blowback operated pistols.
Had the cop been armed with a .380 instead, the 12th bullet may not have had enough remaining potential to disrupt the spinal cord when it impacted the spine.
Replace the aggressor's branch with a knife or gun and he's advancing on you and soaking up hit after hit.
What finally stopped the aggressor was A COMBINATION OF PLACEMENT PLUS ADEQUATE PENETRATION to reach and damage a vital structure. Placement plus penetration are the keys to reliable rapid incapacitation.
With .380 there are tradeoffs. To reliably achieve adequate penetration you have to choose a bullet that produces a milder wound (FMJ or "+P" JHP that expands and shears off the expanded petals (e.g., Hornady XTP)). The "+P" .380 cartridges also increase recoil and affect shootability, especially in blowback operated pistols.
Had the cop been armed with a .380 instead, the 12th bullet may not have had enough remaining potential to disrupt the spinal cord when it impacted the spine.
Replace the aggressor's branch with a knife or gun and he's advancing on you and soaking up hit after hit.
scaatylobo
Member
I gave up LONG ago,trying to explain what "shot placement" meant to those who insist on the .45 ACP as the only cartridge that the good Lord approves of.
Either they will learn as they age,or they wont ---------- not my zoo,not my critters !.
Rapid follow-up shots are always part of my practice, but not at moving targets. I move... Not the targets.
I do agree with everything in your post, especially physics. I know... absolutely know...I will never match what I can do with my larger carry guns using that LC9. I try to narrow the gap where I can.
Do not take this as argumentative, but as somehing intended to be conducive to thought.
To me, "follow up shots" are best referred to in hunting. We want a good, clean, one-shot kill, and if we don't get it, we follow up.
In defensive shooting, we do not expect a one shot stop. We go into it firing several shots very rapidly, in order to effect a rapid stop. Subsequent shots are just part of a strategy to effect a timely stop.
As in, empty the magazine.
I never take what you say as argumentative. I'm pretty green compared to most of you guys.
ETA: When I can, I try to match bullet weight and velocities with my practice ammo on my timed groups.
huntsman
Member
13 rounds in a sub 1lb gun is a game changer for me, even more so than any micro 9mm.
the lehigh defense 68 grain extreme defender bullet does this.
no such thing as 380 acp +p.
extremely lucky to do that with any shot (hit the spinal cord).
obviously it still takes a while to incapacitate without a cns hit regardless the cartridge. two minutes is not "rapid" in this scenario.
and the leo would have started shooting right away.
the 380 acp cartridge is adequate, imo.
free debate is always a good thing,
murf
Shawn Dodson
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 3,189
murf writes:
That bullet is no better than Winchester USA 95gr FMJ in terms of producing mild wound trauma. The flutes are intended to increase the diameter of the temporary cavity, which most soft tissues are able to stretch and rebound with little permanent disruption. Temporary cavity is analogous to blunt trauma - at handgun velocities it bruises soft tissues but doesn't damage them.
Hence the reason why I put "+P" in quotation marks. There is no SAAMI standard for .380 +P. It's a marketing term misused by some manufacturers of .380 ACP cartridges.
There's a reason why it's described as a marginal cartridge for self-defense. It might work or it might not work. We don't get to choose the circumstances.
That bullet is no better than Winchester USA 95gr FMJ in terms of producing mild wound trauma. The flutes are intended to increase the diameter of the temporary cavity, which most soft tissues are able to stretch and rebound with little permanent disruption. Temporary cavity is analogous to blunt trauma - at handgun velocities it bruises soft tissues but doesn't damage them.
Hence the reason why I put "+P" in quotation marks. There is no SAAMI standard for .380 +P. It's a marketing term misused by some manufacturers of .380 ACP cartridges.
There's a reason why it's described as a marginal cartridge for self-defense. It might work or it might not work. We don't get to choose the circumstances.
amd6547
Member
+p may not be a SAAMI official designation, but it is certainly more than "marketing".
Thanks for the explanation.
Thanks for the the clarification..
Yep.
The defender with a .380 is best off with no barriers to punch through, no heavy clothing, no outstretched radius and ulna bones to break, no oblique shots into the torso, and a number of good hits.
A 9mm can be much more effective, as long as the hits are equally lucky.
I believe that with a micro 9, that is less likely, but for me, carrying two medium/large 9s all day won't work.
Thus, my decision to compromise, for the back-up gun.
Resist Evil
Member
I'm 68 and most of my carry is on the belt with a steel 1911 Commander in .45 ACP. I also use a Sig P365 occasionally which is also carried on the belt. My biggest concern with the .380, I own and have carried an NAA Guardian .380 and a Sig P230, is the reduced power of the cartridge to effect a good penetration depth compared to the already little 9x19 round. I bought the Sig because it fits my hand well, it is comfortable to shoot, it is lighter than the .45, holds a couple more rounds than my .45 and a faint belief that a modern top shelf 9mm bullet now has effective terminal ballistics on the human form.
The new Ruger LCP Max sounds attractive for those rare times when the only option is deep carry in the belief that carrying something is better than carrying nothing.
The new Ruger LCP Max sounds attractive for those rare times when the only option is deep carry in the belief that carrying something is better than carrying nothing.
Yep.
All of the experts beieve that it does, and It seems to be doing the job world wide. Few shooters can fire a .45 as rapidly. What will it take to convince you?
And for back-up.
MedWheeler
Member
Shawn Dodson writes:
To which cartridges does the second sentence (used to explain the first) not apply?
To which cartridges does the second sentence (used to explain the first) not apply?
Zendude
Member
I think the LCP Max is a game changer in the pocket 380 market. I’d be willing to bet that most buyers would choose the LCP Max over a S&W Bodyguard 380 or Taurus Spectrum. Maybe even over a Sig 238/Kimber Micro. Personally, I would go with the 238, but the 238 and LCP is not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
That's my thought.
It's odd that the ability to do damage only matters below the magic 9x19.
Again, I agree with that. But as others have pointed out, the second sentence could apply to anything, including the.357 Magnum.
It is a matter of degree.
Buzznrose
Member
Okay…but that’s not what this thread is about.
Buzznrose
Member
So based on my research prior to this thread, I ordered a LCP Max. I picked it up today. Couple things I will say:
1. Mine came with 1 10 round mag. I was disappointed that it didn’t come with both a 10 and a 12 rounder minimum. Poor service by Ruger. I had to buy a 12 rd mag for $30.
2. The gun feels cheap, and I’m a guy who mainly owns plastic guns.
I bought this gun because I didn’t have a pocket gun that wasn’t bigger than a pocket gun should be. It will be a true pocket carry. I will still carry my G43X most of the time.
it’s my first and only .380
This is my shorts and a tshirt, run to get beer gun. Quick trips.
I’m looking forward to running a few mags through it. If it works okay, I’ll be good.
1. Mine came with 1 10 round mag. I was disappointed that it didn’t come with both a 10 and a 12 rounder minimum. Poor service by Ruger. I had to buy a 12 rd mag for $30.
2. The gun feels cheap, and I’m a guy who mainly owns plastic guns.
I bought this gun because I didn’t have a pocket gun that wasn’t bigger than a pocket gun should be. It will be a true pocket carry. I will still carry my G43X most of the time.
it’s my first and only .380
This is my shorts and a tshirt, run to get beer gun. Quick trips.
I’m looking forward to running a few mags through it. If it works okay, I’ll be good.
Mine works with cargo shorts.
But should some unpleasantness occur, it won't matter whether I am on a short trip or long, or going for beer
Buzznrose
Member
Sure. And I could make it work too, but personally don’t see it as worth it. Of course, you are right…we do not get to choose the time/place of being attacked. And “more gun” > “less gun”.
In the summer, my typical shorts are light nylon shorts like coaches/hiking shorts. I’m not much of a fan of the heavier cargo shorts for summer.
But my carry life differs from many hard core 24-7 gun toters. Working on a military base, I cannot carry not even keep it locked in my vehicle while on base. And random vehicle searches with dogs simply don’t make it worth the risk of losing my job.
So bottom line for me…this little .380 will have me carrying something when I otherwise likely would not have anything on my person beyond a small light and knife.
Buzznrose
Member
I agree all the way up to the last sentence. All things being equal, I’m taking the gun with more BB’s.
The "how many rounds do you need for self-defense" debate will go on forever. I already made my decision concerning that. I pocket carry so I don't see it as a game changer. It's just a 380 auto that doesn't fit in my pocket as well as the Remington RM380.
One can debate how many rounds to carry, but how many rounds one may need will remain unknown.
One may learn what did or did not suffice in one encounter, but that is for that one encounter.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
