It did in that case, but a shot that cuts nerves or tendons or that breaks joints can stop a person's progress.
11 or 13 rounds .380 = is that a game changer ?
- Thread starter scaatylobo
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scaatylobo
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I had a great phone conversation with the FBI agent that survived and SOLVED the "Miami Shootout".
He did mention that at no time would he ever say he had too much ammunition on his person.
He now [ retired ] carries a HIGH CAPACITY pistol with spare magazines.
Read his book on his exploits at that horrible gun battle.
Yes I know full well,none of us will ever [ I pray ] find ourselves in such a situation.
But I always look to "the WORST possible scenario " to see how I could survive.
Needed to go into the 'hood' yesterday for business/house sale.
Glock 43X with 2 spare 15 round magazines,Ruger LCP Max in pocket with only the 1 magazine I own [ the 4 are in the mail as I pen this ].
And of course,Mace,Blades [ plural ] and eyes at full '6' oclock duty.
After he retired, Jim Cirillo carried two double stack semi autos.
or not. the cns hit is a "will stop". it is pretty obvious the attacker is high on some kind of amphetamine. you can see the "superman" look in his eyes while being shot. without the cns hit this guy could have flailed the leo with that branch for a couple more minutes.
i do agree hitting other vital things can stop a fight, just not this one, imo. good thing the leo's bullets had enough penetration to get to the spine.
murf
Gordon
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I bought a Mauser HSC Super which holds 12 round mags in .380 . Beautifully made and the wide Walnut grip is very friendly feeling and it really soaks up the .380 snap . My idea was a good wife or daughter grab for home defense weapon. It only like RN profile ammo, is NOT reliable with flat nose profile 
it does feed the Critical Defense stuff which I have a couple boxes of left. My idea was a gun to shower perps with .380 to discoaurge them from further activity . The mag changes are quick, it auto reloads ! How ever on rethinking the concept is flawed, gun is no smaller than a Glock 26 or maybe my G19 which are 100% reliable and kick no harder . I am having my NJ son seek a permit to purchase it and I will send it to his FFL if it ever happens , perfect NJ gun with FMJ for his little acre in the woods. I have two 10 round mags for it also.
Here is good pictures of an identical one :
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/903940964
it does feed the Critical Defense stuff which I have a couple boxes of left. My idea was a gun to shower perps with .380 to discoaurge them from further activity . The mag changes are quick, it auto reloads ! How ever on rethinking the concept is flawed, gun is no smaller than a Glock 26 or maybe my G19 which are 100% reliable and kick no harder . I am having my NJ son seek a permit to purchase it and I will send it to his FFL if it ever happens , perfect NJ gun with FMJ for his little acre in the woods. I have two 10 round mags for it also.Here is good pictures of an identical one :
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/903940964
Putting one or two bullets through a lung would not be expected to cause it to collapse immediately
Buckeye63
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Yep .. it’s pretty much immediate , brain needs O2 , thats all the brain will try to do … attackers brain switches gears … like when you throat punch someone.. their hands go to the throat…
Im a nurse.a decade as a trauma nurse ..
That is not what forensic medical experts tell us.
Yeah.
Have you examined persons with lung puncture wounds immediately after they occurred?
Have you studied the incident discussed in Post #115?
And even if it does collapse that's not likely to cause a immediate stop.
MrChicken
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I worked with a guy that had one lung removed due to cancer. You wouldn't know it unless he told you.
If memory serves me right, John Wayne did a few movies with just one lung.
Now there is a difference of living with just one lung and suddenly losing half of your lung capacity. Being an asthmatic I know that feeling, even so it's not disabling enough for me to stop fighting for my life.
One of the Miami - FBI shooters had a lungful of blood and kept going.
If memory serves me right, John Wayne did a few movies with just one lung.
Now there is a difference of living with just one lung and suddenly losing half of your lung capacity. Being an asthmatic I know that feeling, even so it's not disabling enough for me to stop fighting for my life.
One of the Miami - FBI shooters had a lungful of blood and kept going.
Based on my experience killing 30+ deer ...
I usually hit both lungs (broadside deer), animal still has about 10 seconds of voluntary action which they use to run away.
Apply that to human attacker, shoot one lung or both, attacker potentially has 10 seconds or more to continue voluntary hostile action.
Not to be macabre, but I think if I were shot in the lung by an attacker I could return fire afterward.
Buckeye63
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Huge Huge huge difference between a Deer and a person …
Yep.
But we know that a shot through a human heart can leave the person with fifteen seconds to strike. Realistically, what wo you think that a smell puncture wound in one lung would do?
One more time, have you studied the incident discussed in Post #115?
Have you studied the forensic research that tells us that a shot through a lung is not likely to effect a rapid physical stop?
Llew Taranau
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Game changer? Not for me -- 9mm Parabellum is the smallest I'm willing to go.
YMMV, natch.
YMMV, natch.
BigAlShooter
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To add my two cents - I've had a lung collapse when I was 21. It was a spontaneous pneumothorax, doctor said I had small pockets at the top of my lungs that can suddenly pop, resulting in a lung collapse. I remember it happened when I got up out my seat and it felt like I popped something in my shoulder. I don't recall being out of breath. I was pretty a pretty healthy 21 year old. I tried to "walk it off" until later that day, I remember when I took a deep breath I would feel pain and could feel my chest "flapping around." Went to the doctor that same day and I remember them calling an ambulance, offering me oxygen, and telling me that I needed someone to pick up my car, as I was being rushed to the hospital. I think I could of walked a few miles to the hospital if I had to. 10 days in the hospital and the tubes in my lungs were much worse than the first symptoms.
scaatylobo
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SIMPLE = all he needs do is read the FBI breakdown of the horrific shooting that was on 1986 in Miami.
I have read ALL the documents including the autopsy Micheal Lee Platt was wounded by a 9MM round that went through his lungs and he was " supposed to be dead" at that moment.
He lived long enough to kill 2 FBI agents and wound half a dozen more.
Edmundo Mireles was the reason he did not actually drive off.
So pardon my not believing your observations in a static scrubbed room.
Buzznrose
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I think it make a huge difference how much “fight” is in and individual as well as how much drugs are in their system.
Not much different than a fist fight…some guys crumble from one punch to the chest, while others take a 2X4 to the back and keep coming.
I agree with Buckeye…a lung shot is crippling and should immediately decapacitate…but the mental will to fight causes some to override the body temporarily and continue to attack.
scaatylobo
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PLEASE do read my post above yours
Buzznrose
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Strictly addressing your last sentence…no need to not believe a trauma nurse. The distinction should simply be drawn to “during fight observations” versus “post fight-hospital observation”.
Buzznrose
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I did. I was typing mine when yours was posted.
I Cannot imagine why any informed person would believe that. A preponderance of the evidence says otherwise,
"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", published by the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit of the DoJ tells us that a handgun bullet fired into a lung cannot be expected to reliably effect an immediate physical stop.
The reasons are expounded upon in the footnoted references, which are public information.
We have seen numerous videos here showing persons hit in the upper torso by six, eight, and twelve shots from service-caliber handguns who kept attacking.
One of them has been linked in this thread in Post #115, and the poster, who is an experienced LEO, explained what stopped the attacker.
It is difficult to miss a lung. If lung shots were effective in effecting timely stops, physical or otherwise, the outcomes of many deadly force incidents would have been different. One of those is discussed in Post #167.
This subject is covered in most defensive training courses, civilian and LEO, and it has been discussed at great length at THR over the last several years.
Gordon
Member
The thru the side of chest of an animal or human with a sufficiently powerful cartridge to do damage is called "Dual cavity hyperexcavation" I believe, and a HECK of a lot deadlier and quicker than a single punctured lung. That is why the cross chest shot on deer ect. are very good . Good but not instant . Pelvic hits incapacitate humans pretty quick from pain or if lucky breakage and the femoral artery is deadly . I have seen the pelvic hit with a .38 Special in action and it ain't prettyand causes a big tough guy to lose interest in everything instantly.
Yea...
The deer used their remaining seconds to run away.
An armed attacker may use those seconds to try and continue to stab, shoot, inflict damage.
Huge, huge, difference alright.
Just because somebody is shot does not mean they will quit, two examples to support that:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/v...deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/
Buzznrose
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I guess I didn't make myself clear as I should have.
Basically, the point I was trying to make is that I'd wager if we had data from EVERY gunfight where a threat is shot through one lung, I'd bet a LOT of them were done when the bullet hit them...as in done with the fight. I'd also wager that the folks who continued to fight with a gunshot to the chest and through one lung are the exception, and why we hear about them.
But I surely could be wrong.
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