open carry for blackpowder revolvers ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
However, the OP was discussing OC in Virginia. If I anticipated needing more in a fight, I wouldn't go there unless I was a LEO or in the military. While a diversion, OC of a long arm isn't at issue here.

We see folks promoting OC in environments that are scarcely populated and with a low chance of encounter. I've OC'ed when hunting in TX Hill country on private land. That's irrelevant to OC'ing in the urban supermarket.

BTW, folks sometimes talk about their retention skills, that is a good thing to have but most useful in the police environment where they must come in close contact with opponents. Even then, a large proportion of officer shootings occur with their own gun. For the civilian, a grab might be a complete surprise as no one can maintain complete awareness. See the links I posted on civilian problems. Also, who says the attempt at your gun might be just wrestling as compared to a start with a surprise knife or impact attack. You cannot discount a motivated attacker. Not everyone is scared of the appearance of the average OC person. I see no reason to hang an incentive for crime out in the open. You might say that the deterrent value is more than the incentive value. That will be your empirical question. Just as another nuance, cross draw holsters are easy to interfere with on the draw when the opponent is close up. Hard to draw to a retention possession.
 
Last edited:
GEM said:
However, the OP was discussing OC in Virginia. If I anticipated needing more in a fight, I wouldn't go there unless I was a LEO or in the military. While a diversion, OC of a long arm isn't at issue here.

We see folks promoting OC in environments that are scarcely populated and with a low chance of encounter. I've OC'ed when hunting in TX Hill country on private land. That's irrelevant to OC'ing in the urban supermarket.

BTW, folks sometimes talk about their retention skills, that is a good thing to have but most useful in the police environment where they must come in close contact with opponents. Even then, a large proportion of officer shootings occur with their own gun. For the civilian, a grab might be a complete surprise as no one can maintain complete awareness. See the links I posted on civilian problems. Also, who says the attempt at your gun might be just wrestling as compared to a start with a surprise knife or impact attack. You cannot discount a motivated attacker. Not everyone is scared of the appearance of the average OC person. I see no reason to hang an incentive for crime out in the open. You might say that the deterrent value is more than the incentive value. That will be your empirical question. Just as another nuance, cross draw holsters are easy to interfere with on the draw when the opponent is close up. Hard to draw to a retention possession.
Click to expand...

That’s why you carry grip forward under a cover garment: at least 3 different options for drawing, easy to block attempts to draw from the front. And know how to strike and move properly. Unfortunately, NO handgun of any caliber or reload speed will compensate for inadequate striking and footwork, especially since sneak attacks will invariably happen directly next to you before you can draw. That’s why having a Big Scary Knife is a good backup, since it can make someone immediately and deeply regret going for your gun.
 
under a cover garment
Click to expand...

That says it all. About the knife, that's a diversion but carrying a big knife is troublesome for many modes of dress. Smaller knives like Southnarc's, Greg Ellifritz's or our JShirley models might be easier to carry. There is a debate on folders vs. straight edges for carry but hso might explain that.
 
Sometimes juries and the police do not act positively to the use of a knife for self defense. I've often thought that the best way to open carry, cap-n-ball or modern gun, would be for the OC gun to be unloaded, (carried on the left side, if right handed) and then carry one's loaded pistol concealed. It would be kind of "funny" to watch someone snatch and grab the OC gun, and then start clicking away at you. Of course, a jury would not find it funny at all if you shot the person. Not sure if one could claim: "I thought it was loaded", "because I forgot to reload it when I cleaned it". But I get a kick out of the thought.

As a young, long haired, "Colorful" Harley riding individual in the 1970's I used to carry a big knife, "open carry". It was not troublesome for my mode of dress.!!!!! I never had a problem with the law, or anyone trying to grab it. From what I understand, now-a-days, in this state, Washington State, packing a big knife can lead to more problems than open carry with a pistol. The knife laws are very "grey".
 
Ugly Sauce said:
Sometimes juries and the police do not act positively to the use of a knife for self defense. I've often thought that the best way to open carry, cap-n-ball or modern gun, would be for the OC gun to be unloaded, (carried on the left side, if right handed) and then carry one's loaded pistol concealed. It would be kind of "funny" to watch someone snatch and grab the OC gun, and then start clicking away at you. Of course, a jury would not find it funny at all if you shot the person. Not sure if one could claim: "I thought it was loaded", "because I forgot to reload it when I cleaned it". But I get a kick out of the thought.

As a young, long haired, "Colorful" Harley riding individual in the 1970's I used to carry a big knife, "open carry". It was not troublesome for my mode of dress.!!!!! I never had a problem with the law, or anyone trying to grab it. From what I understand, now-a-days, in this state, Washington State, packing a big knife can lead to more problems than open carry with a pistol. The knife laws are very "grey".
Click to expand...

I’ve open carried the exact way you describe a couple times, with a compact 9 mm concealed on the right. I ultimately settled on a knife backup to have one less gun bumping around my waist. Juries are a nuisance. I’d almost rather have a warrior’s death and take the perp with me than deal with a group of randos playing armchair quarterback about my “excessive” use of a knife to stop the career criminal trying to shoot me with my own gun at the Safeway.
 
Amen brother. Prosecutors pick juries looking for the most possible, maximum amount of ignorance. They can be convinced of just about anything.
 
Ugly Sauce said:
I've often thought that the best way to open carry, cap-n-ball or modern gun, would be for the OC gun to be unloaded, (carried on the left side, if right handed) and then carry one's loaded pistol concealed. It would be kind of "funny" to watch someone snatch and grab the OC gun, and then start clicking away at you. Of course, a jury would not find it funny at all if you shot the person. Not sure if one could claim: "I thought it was loaded", "because I forgot to reload it when I cleaned it". But I get a kick out of the thought.
Click to expand...
You are easily amused.

That is among the most absurd ideas we have seen floated here,
 
Ugly Sauce said:
I've often thought that the best way to open carry, cap-n-ball or modern gun, would be for the OC gun to be unloaded, (carried on the left side, if right handed) and then carry one's loaded pistol concealed. It would be kind of "funny" to watch someone snatch and grab the OC gun, and then start clicking away at you.
Click to expand...

Police Story was a pretty good cop show in the 1970s, but they had some strange ideas about firearms.
The vet told the rookie: "Of course you have to have an empty chamber under the hammer (of his K38), but you should also leave the next one empty. That way if somebody grabs your gun, it won't go off the first try and you will have time to go for your backup."
 
Jim Watson said:
Police Story was a pretty good cop show in the 1970s, but they had some strange ideas about firearms.
The vet told the rookie: "Of course you have to have an empty chamber under the hammer (of his K38), but you should also leave the next one empty. That way if somebody grabs your gun, it won't go off the first try and you will have time to go for your backup."
Click to expand...

Bizarre. One retired cop friend of mine who served in the NYPD in the 70’s used to carry every chamber loaded, and two J frames; one in each zipped jacket pocket, all fully loaded. Sometimes he preferred the concealed J frames to carrying a duty weapon out in the open though. He said a gun in the open got too many glances in the rough neighborhoods and didn’t intimidate the worst denizens anyway. Much better and more comforting I would guess to keep both hands warm in the jacket, each one holding a .38.
 
Well that was NYC for real and LA on teevee.
But LA for real was odd, too. M. Ayoob relates the conversion of the last generation of LAPD revolvers to DAO because a brandished gun was no longer sufficiently intimidating and the cops had gone to cocking their revolvers for emphasis. Leaving them with a cocked gun to manage in the aftermath.
 
Hello all. Sorry for not replying. Been busy with life.. moving etc.. Someone mentioned my fealings would be hurt if they said what they wanted


First of all im 35.. not 15.. What anyone says wont hurt my feelings LOL.. i could careless in the end if someone says something you think is offensive. Be less worried about peoples feelings and just say what you want.

I made the ppst to ask for opinions. And opinions i got.

Clearly i know a 1911 is a better choice.. easier to use more reliable ( although ive had tons of jams with mine). More rounds. And honestly better holster choices. Less attention grabs. But my real question here is this.. WHY not carry a cap and ball occasionally ?

Youre all talking about hypotheticals here when you mention gun snatching. Or people shooting me first if they want to commit a crime.

I honestly cannot even think of a time or find anything on someone being blown away for walking into the supermarket and a criminal going hmm.. im going to shoot him first. I dont think thats ever haplened.. and if it has its extremely rare.

Now i have seen cases of a ccw owner following mass murderers in walmart and getting shot and killed by the lady that he didnt know was with the guy he was following.

The cases of people getting guns snatched that i have seen were with people having guns in a pocket. Not a holster with any kind of retention. Sure you hear that happening with a cop. But im not a cop who phyaically gets involved with people daily.

All these assumptions are hypothetical... The gun can be snatched.. open carry means youre dead first.. i get it..

I dont have conceal permits yet so i open carry. And again all i have is what i have.. a 1911 and 1851 navys. My 1911 is just too big to conceal in my pants.. Im a 300 lbs guy.. shoving a gun this size in my pants is hard lol. And i dont wear jackets in the summer.

So for now i open carry..

As for the guy whos confused on my aim. Whats confusing about it. The 1911 im fairly accurate at 7-10 yards. Im always within 0-9-8 on the charts... i shoot in the same holes often. But after 15 yards im all over the place. And i think its just lack of experience. However my 1851 navy.. 7-15 yards im always dead center.

I can fire my 1911 9 times in repetition at 15 yards and itll be all over the chart.. i can fire all 6 rounds on my 1851 and ill be in the torso with each round. It just seems im alot more accurate with the reolver than i am with a 1911 at least 15 yards out anyway.

But i wont deny the 1911 i feel safer with.. for obvious reasons. I honestly dont get why people who bring up that i want to pretend to be wyatt erp or wuick draw mcgraw because i carry two 1851 revolvers.

Again i ask why is that so wrong. Other than an immature answer of me wanting to be a overhyped law man from nearly 200 years ago.

Yes i like the 1851 navy more. Is that really so wrong. ?


Also to reply to the reload times. I carry both because both = 10 rounds. Yes the barrel swap is 8 seconds.. yes my 1911 3s reload is slow.. But i also do not train every single day. Im not John wick. Or the guy you see on youtube videos with no recoil firing 15 rounds in 2 seconds. And reloading teo magazines in .5 seconds.

I litterally JUST got these guns 2 months ago lol. ive been to the range 6 times in total. And fired about 500 or so rounds each and maybe 1000 9n my 1911.. thats it. The last two months ive been moving packing. Dealing with home improvements etc. Not sitting in front of a mirror for 3 hours practicing my draw and reload.


I was just being brutally honest on what my capabilities are at this current time.

Also to reply to other comments.. My 1851 navy.. have Never had a cap jam yet on the first 6 rounds fired. Never. Im not saying it wont happen.. but the jamming cylinder and cap jams seem to happen after about 20+ rounds fired. Especially on my steel 1851.. that one gets hard to cock the hammer after the 2nd load.. but the firet 6 shots on both.. its smooth as butter. I finally had a cap missfire yesturday . That was after 500+ shots.

My 1911 though. Which is a rockisland. Has jammed multiple times. The 8th round sometimes doesnt chamber either. Ive lost counts on how many times ive had to fight with that gun.

I did fix it with a new magazine brand MOSTLY. But all im saying is ive never had issues with my 1851s until after it gums up.

Also i load 30 grains. Not 25 lol.

Whats honestly the diff between people carrying modern revolvers. And me carrying a 1851. Besides the slim possibility of a cap jam ? I also carry TWO.. thats 10 shots. And a 2nd gun if one does jam.. but i do get it.. 10 rounds in tens of seconds.. vs 15 rounds from a glock 19 or something.


I am not denying modern handguns are better.. not at all.

Im glad we all had these discussions. I like hearing everyones point of views.

Please dont worry about offending me guys LOL. . Im not a snowflake. Just keep it civil. If you want to name call me which one guy i think wanted to do.. Then i wont take anything you say seriously because you litterally are just a mouth breather with no real opinion thats credible
 
Last edited:
brewer12345 said:
In populated areas I never open carry anything. Too much of an invitation to trouble. In the woods I carry, well, something. Might be a 38 snub. Might be a 357 with 180 grain bear loads. Might be a modern plastic fantastic. Might be a long arm or black powder. I rarely run across random people where I go in the woods, but they always notice I am carrying and if they aren't friendly they go away quickly. After coming snoot to snoot with a big black bear while squirrel hunting, I no longer hit the woods without something bigger than a .22.

OTOH, with 30 grains of 3F in a 44 at close range self defense type shooting, if you miss your assailant you will probably at least set him on fire...
Click to expand...


Ahah i loved the last lart of your post
 
Hey Candymancan, carry what makes you comfortable, I am fortunate enough to have a variety of choices both modern and percussion revo!vers and such. I would like to get a conversion cylinder for one of them but haven't had time or money to do so. On a side note your 1851 most likely needs some work done, barrel to cylinder gap in specific. If it's over .006 thousandths powder fouling is much more likely to be an issue. I would also recommend an action shield and action stop and possibly a cap post. All these fixes will result in a more reliable pistol. Another side note, Wyatt Earp as a lawman was more likely to whack a bad guy over the head with his pistol rather than shoot the guy. He did get shot at and he did shoot back. Just not as much as Hollywood would like us to believe.
 
Aside from the technical aspects of using these old west firearms in a modern day self defense scenario, you may also want to think about the possibility that you may have to use it and the legal aftermath. It is not uncommon that the prosecutors in these cases twist certain things into fantasy perception of your mindset at the moment. As such, any skulls on your firearm, any engravings or even upgraded components like triggers may be used against you. Is it possible that the prosecutor may create the perception that you have some sort of wild west fantasy and that you were itching for a fight? They will use anything they can. I personally carry these on the belt on my property loaded with shot for cottonmouth snakes and such. In public, I carry a very plane jane officer 1911 and have USCCA coverage.
 
I won't shoot an open top with out some of the "up grades" mentioned, they only bring them up to an original fit and operation! These clones are built with cost not quality as the goal.
 
I say carry what YOU are most confident and comfortable with, while keeping your mind open to changes and inprovement as your options, experience, and training increase.

candymancan said:
I can fire my 1911 9 times in repetition at 15 yards and itll be all over the chart.. i can fire all 6 rounds on my 1851 and ill be in the torso with each round. It just seems im alot more accurate with the reolver than i am with a 1911 at least 15
yards out anyway.
Click to expand...

Kinda unrelated, but thought I'd ask: could it be a recoil management issue with the 1911? The single action C&B revolver is necessarily slower since one is required to cock it in a separate action from firing it. The recoil, whether perceived as greater or lesser than the semi-auto, is also a singular "action" on the revolver, meaning the gun is static during recoil. With the 1911, the slide moves - in two directions during the cycle, the barrel moves, a spent case ejects, another round moves up in the magazine and is stripped out of the mag and into the chamber... there's a lot going on in a split second!

Perhaps all that movement within the pistol while your hand and arm are also moving with recoil is delaying your re-acquisition of your sight picture, thus the wide spread shot placement. The simpler, static condition of the revolver during recoil is (un- or subconsciously perhaps) more readily managed, thus enabling you to get back on target quicker and more accurately.

Best keep shootin' frequently until you figger it out! ;) (In case you needed an excuse for more range time!)
 
candymancan said:
Hello all. Sorry for not replying. Been busy with life.. moving etc.. Someone mentioned my fealings would be hurt if they said what they wanted


First of all im 35.. not 15.. What anyone says wont hurt my feelings LOL.. i could careless in the end if someone says something you think is offensive. Be less worried about peoples feelings and just say what you want.

I made the ppst to ask for opinions. And opinions i got.

Clearly i know a 1911 is a better choice.. easier to use more reliable ( although ive had tons of jams with mine). More rounds. And honestly better holster choices. Less attention grabs. But my real question here is this.. WHY not carry a cap and ball occasionally ?

Youre all talking about hypotheticals here when you mention gun snatching. Or people shooting me first if they want to commit a crime.

I honestly cannot even think of a time or find anything on someone being blown away for walking into the supermarket and a criminal going hmm.. im going to shoot him first. I dont think thats ever haplened.. and if it has its extremely rare.

Now i have seen cases of a ccw owner following mass murderers in walmart and getting shot and killed by the lady that he didnt know was with the guy he was following.

The cases of people getting guns snatched that i have seen were with people having guns in a pocket. Not a holster with any kind of retention. Sure you hear that happening with a cop. But im not a cop who phyaically gets involved with people daily.

All these assumptions are hypothetical... The gun can be snatched.. open carry means youre dead first.. i get it..

I dont have conceal permits yet so i open carry. And again all i have is what i have.. a 1911 and 1851 navys. My 1911 is just too big to conceal in my pants.. Im a 300 lbs guy.. shoving a gun this size in my pants is hard lol. And i dont wear jackets in the summer.

So for now i open carry..

As for the guy whos confused on my aim. Whats confusing about it. The 1911 im fairly accurate at 7-10 yards. Im always within 0-9-8 on the charts... i shoot in the same holes often. But after 15 yards im all over the place. And i think its just lack of experience. However my 1851 navy.. 7-15 yards im always dead center.

I can fire my 1911 9 times in repetition at 15 yards and itll be all over the chart.. i can fire all 6 rounds on my 1851 and ill be in the torso with each round. It just seems im alot more accurate with the reolver than i am with a 1911 at least 15 yards out anyway.

But i wont deny the 1911 i feel safer with.. for obvious reasons. I honestly dont get why people who bring up that i want to pretend to be wyatt erp or wuick draw mcgraw because i carry two 1851 revolvers.

Again i ask why is that so wrong. Other than an immature answer of me wanting to be a overhyped law man from nearly 200 years ago.

Yes i like the 1851 navy more. Is that really so wrong. ?


Also to reply to the reload times. I carry both because both = 10 rounds. Yes the barrel swap is 8 seconds.. yes my 1911 3s reload is slow.. But i also do not train every single day. Im not John wick. Or the guy you see on youtube videos with no recoil firing 15 rounds in 2 seconds. And reloading teo magazines in .5 seconds.

I litterally JUST got these guns 2 months ago lol. ive been to the range 6 times in total. And fired about 500 or so rounds each and maybe 1000 9n my 1911.. thats it. The last two months ive been moving packing. Dealing with home improvements etc. Not sitting in front of a mirror for 3 hours practicing my draw and reload.


I was just being brutally honest on what my capabilities are at this current time.

Also to reply to other comments.. My 1851 navy.. have Never had a cap jam yet on the first 6 rounds fired. Never. Im not saying it wont happen.. but the jamming cylinder and cap jams seem to happen after about 20+ rounds fired. Especially on my steel 1851.. that one gets hard to cock the hammer after the 2nd load.. but the firet 6 shots on both.. its smooth as butter. I finally had a cap missfire yesturday . That was after 500+ shots.

My 1911 though. Which is a rockisland. Has jammed multiple times. The 8th round sometimes doesnt chamber either. Ive lost counts on how many times ive had to fight with that gun.

I did fix it with a new magazine brand MOSTLY. But all im saying is ive never had issues with my 1851s until after it gums up.

Also i load 30 grains. Not 25 lol.

Whats honestly the diff between people carrying modern revolvers. And me carrying a 1851. Besides the slim possibility of a cap jam ? I also carry TWO.. thats 10 shots. And a 2nd gun if one does jam.. but i do get it.. 10 rounds in tens of seconds.. vs 15 rounds from a glock 19 or something.


I am not denying modern handguns are better.. not at all.

Im glad we all had these discussions. I like hearing everyones point of views.

Please dont worry about offending me guys LOL. . Im not a snowflake. Just keep it civil. If you want to name call me which one guy i think wanted to do.. Then i wont take anything you say seriously because you litterally are just a mouth breather with no real opinion thats credible
Click to expand...
Your 1911 is sick... I’m only passing familiar with Rock Island but I have heard good things about them. Check with a good gunsmith as to the accuracy issues. WRT reliability... I had a cheap Norinco at one time that was dead nuts accurate with Black Talons and completely failure proof with good magazines, McCormick, Colt or Wilson, but those are all I would try in ANY 1911. Start with the magazines and then look elsewhere, springs, extractor tension, on and on. Failing all of that, the Sig 320 (in .45 if you can find one, in 9 or .40 if you can’t) is a reliable and accurate arm and can be used in many roles.
 
Carrying what you are comfortable with, is a nice polite thing to say. However, we are discussing making a life and death decision and action process. One should carry an optimal gun that you are competent in using without glaring flaws. The BP/OC set up is not that given modern alternatives.

Also, I would comment that more range time is not a solution to being unable to competently shoot a platform like a 1911. While the gun may be faulty, poor shooting is usually technique. Equipment doesn't fix technique problems in general. It is very difficult to correct one's problems. You can view media presentations on the technique that are excellent. However, one usually needs a good basics class with a competent instructor to diagnosis one's faults.

That is the way to go. I might suggest ditching the 1911 for a standard 9mm striker such as a Glock 19, M&P or 320 - among other reasonable models. Then get competent instruction. Ditch the fantasy (to be brutal) of carrying a BP, cross draw rig. This isn't COS play. Posters have pointed out the downside of the set up, tactical and legal risks, capacity limits, etc. Now I expect that folks will be reluctant to take advice. Over the course of history and lately the internet, when one announces their preference, basically looking for attaboys and confirmation, change is hard to accept.

This process has been demonstrated across decision making for a long time. It takes some true grit to admit you need to change. I would point out that THR is quite polite as compared to some more technically oriented firearms using venues.
 
Wow!!!
GEM, you just tell us what is best for us!! You obviously know . . .
If I have to learn something new I haven't done all my life well, that's way in my corner !!! In the excitement of everything going on in an emergency, I'm sure I'll do everything you say just perfect!!!


The two instances in my life that brought a possible life and death situation into play were easily handled with my ancient ass S.A. and very quickly (they didn't ask if it was a cap gun or cartridge, didn't seem to matter). . . just the sight of it defused it immediately. Even thugs don't want holes inum!!! Thanks but, no thanks !!!

Mike
 
Last edited:
My take on it is you find something you're comfortable with and practice, practice, practice. Hopefully you never have use it in self defense but when or if that time comes you will at the very least have some clue as to what you and the gun are capable of. Of course if it's under a stress filled situation who knows how one is gonna react unless you've been there and done that before, barring combat vets and experienced law enforcement personnel.
 
If you propose an action and don't want an evaluation, don't ask. If you want an attaboy, that's too bad. The real world gives you real world evaluations that determine whether you go to jail, get a job, get into school, get a promotion, have a work proposal accepted, etc. This can be straight forward with no punches pulled. If you propose a solution to a lethal force hypothetical, don't expect an automatic attaboy. If you propose something for evaluation, you get it and take it or leave it.

I'm pretty sure that if the BP/OC method was proposed to legit and experience firearms trainers, it would not be seen as a good idea or treated kindly. Saying that you chose that because lack of competency with a standard firearm would not be respected.

We get this all the time - recall folks arguing for why they think a single shot shotgun is a good choice for home SD? Same thing, outrage that some thought there are better solutions. I'm sure there are bad guys who would flee from the sight of a flintlock pistol. So what. There are some that won't. I think I posted that in Austin, a BP/OC carrier was told by an officer that doing that was a bad idea. NO! Muh rightz. Then he received an educational beatdown and theft by gang members who weren't impressed. Anecdotes, anecdotes!
 
Yabbut, no less an authority than the President of these United States suggested a double barreled 12 gauge and then, before the action even starts, discharging both barrels into the air! I guess if it’s good enough for Joe, it ought to be good enough for us commoners.

there’s a lot of advice out there. I’m going back to the most lethal legal option you’re trained and effective using. I don’t suggest open carry in urban environments unless you’re in a uniform. Out in the country it’s another matter, concealed carry there might not allow you to carry the most effective gun for the job. Not everyone can conceal a 7.5” barreled Blackhawk.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

TheWall
  • Locked
Conicals for Blackpowder revolvers?
2
Replies
30
Views
11K
Busyhands94
B
G
  • Locked
need advice on pietta .44
2
Replies
45
Views
4K
buttrap
B
M
  • Locked
  • Poll
Would you open carry a BP revolver?
2 3 4 5
Replies
123
Views
6K
Armored farmer
Armored farmer
J
  • Locked
would anyone ever conceal carry a cap and ball revolver?
2 3 4
Replies
90
Views
13K
44 Dave
44 Dave
ivankerley
  • Locked
questions and advice about colt clone BP revolvers
2 3
Replies
57
Views
3K
Noz
Noz
Back
Top