Scope Magnification: Accuracy Increase?

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WrongHanded

WrongHanded

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Spinning off from this thread https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/old-guys.893814/ about scope magnification power and age, let's talk about results.

If you take the same rifle and load combination, and mount two scopes of similar quality, but for example one is a 4x and the other is a 25x, what's the quantitative difference in group size?

Does anyone have some real world results from their own shooting to say how much increased magnification helps with their precision?

I feel like it helps to be able to see the target with good definition, and that perhaps 2.5x is a little limiting for me. But between 7x and 9x, I haven't seen an appreciable difference. I'm sure some of you have more experience over a wider magnification range than I do though. So let's hear it.
 
In my experience target size and shape matter as much as magnification and reticle.

Try drawing a triangle and putting a target spot towards one of the points but a little to a side.
Do it so that you can see the target spot on your highest magnification but you can't see it, or can only barely see it, on your lowest and then try shoot a group on your target spot.

Do the same thing with a circle or a square (In my experience squares easier,) And with the target dot centered in the middle.

I'm not a long-range, precision, competition, etc shooter.... So I might be off base,
That's an experiment I tried for myself with an air gun after reading a number of posts about low magnification power, open sights, and target size/shape.
 
The quality of the optic will have huge impact on your comparison. Are we comparing Simmons or nightforce. Optical degradation in quality optics is much less. Cheap scopes go sideways fast. My nightforce br does 42x really well.
 
The "Law of Diminishing Returns" comes into play with increasing magnification.

For instance, on a hot day - one can keep reference points stable with the target smack on the crosshairs at 300m at 10x and score excellent hits...

...bump it up to 25x on the same scope, and the target seems to bounce with each heartbeat, mirage makes your sight picture questionable, etc...

I guess that one should only go as high as his sight picture / hits would permit.

And yeah... "All you need is 10X for 1000 yards." :rofl:
 
I've not tried anything over 20X and in my experience once you get over 10X there are negatives that start to negate the magnification. I believe you you need a lot better quality 20X scope than a 10X scope. I know a lot of people who use common 3-9X40 scopes in the $200-$500 price range. When they try to go up to the 6-25X50 scopes in the same price range and are disappointed. With scopes in that magnification range you should probably be looking at scopes priced in 4 figures to get the quality you need.

I have quit seeing posts that "All you need is 10X for 1000 yards."
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I've never shot at 1000, but I'd bet a high quality 10X would be better than most shooters have the skills to shoot at that range. I have shot at 600 with a fixed power 6X scope and managed 4" groups. That is 3/4 MOA. I've taken deer at 200+ with 2X scopes.

The reticle matters. Many hunting scopes have rather thick reticles making precision a little harder. A really clear scope with a fine reticle makes a bigger difference than the magnification.

I've proven to myself that I can shoot MOA with 1X per 100 yards, but I'd not want to go less than that. And I don't think I need more than 2X per 100 yards.

For most people 1 MOA is the goal and 1/2 MOA is outstanding. If you're one of those rare people looking for groups in the .1-.3 MOA range then more magnification might help. But for the vast majority of shooters something with 6X-10X on the top end is more than enough.
 
1. Accurate, repeatable, and 100moa adjustment.
2. Zoom and illumination
3. Clear Glass
4. Inexpensive

Pick 3. I usually scrap the Zoom for a fixed 10x.

You need really expensive glass past 20x.

Short range, I use a thick illuminated reticle like the green triangle of a Trijicon 5-20x 50mm. Hunting for example.

Long range I want very thin crosshairs. The Horus Christmas tree maybe.
 
Just to be clear guys, I'm not looking for a new scope or rethinking what I have. I'm just asking about personal experience with regards to magnification.

And when comparing two scopes of drastically different magnification, @AJC1 I'm talking about similar optical quality rather than similar price range. And I suppose that could be as simple as turning a variable scope through the range of magnification.
 
My experience has shown me that if you have a $500 25X scope and a $1500 25X scope and a $2500 25X scope is that at maximum magnification the least expensive scope, image quality will degrade considerably the , the next scope their could be mild degradation of clarity in the image and the highest priced scope will have the best clarity in image. All three though will magnify atmospheric conditions whether it is mirage, haze, and will show your heartbeat and breathing considerably. After the $2500 price tag buying a more expensive scope will not give you the return one might expect when it comes to optical quality, at this point you are paying for extra doo-hickeys on the scope and the optical clarity from a $2500 dollar scope and a $3500 dollar is not discernible to the human eye.
 
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I just shot the IBS 1000 yard nationals a couple weeks ago, I use a 15-60x52mm Vortex Golden Eagle and never got much over 30 power due to heavy smoke in the air, mirage etc. My sight picture was better on the lower settings and my groups didn't suffer from lack of power. In really good conditions the extra power would come in handy even though that's not often I'd still rather have than not.
 

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My target shooting is primarily sighting in and load development. In general (because I do not use super high grade optics), I find that more power means more distortion. However, the maximum power of any of my scopes is 14x (and most are 9-12 x). However, I have shot sub moa groups with a 2.5 x.

I agree with LoonWulf that the type and shape of target is a huge factor. Personally, I prefer circular targets and my target sighting points are at 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock. Assuming a simple cross hair recticle: When shooting at the 6 and 12 o'clock points (which I favor in that order), I will hold the horizontal cross hair tangentially to the circle and bisect the circle with the vertical cross hair. At 3 and 9 o'clock, I do the opposite. I have found that this gives more consistent and smaller groups (especially with lower powers).
 
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WrongHanded said:
But between 7x and 9x, I haven't seen an appreciable difference.
Click to expand...
I would agree 100%

Back in the day we shot almost exclusively 36X in Registered Benchrest matches. A few had Leupolds bumped up to 40X. For shooting tee tiny groups you need high power.

That said, I have routinely shot 2s, 3s, & 4s (More 3s/4s than 2s) with my PRS rifle doing load work/sight in with the scope at 20 to 25 power.

I have routinely hit 2, 3 or 4 MOA targets at distance with 12X.

To what purpose are you going to ask the scope to perform?
 
As a general rule, being able to see the target better will usually improve the shooter's results downrange. After all, you can't hit what you can't see. When I first entered the "sniper world", our standard issue scope for the M24 SWS was a fixed 10X, later upgraded to a variable 3.5-10X on the M24 SWS. We qualified to 800 meters with these setups, and regularly pushed our limits out to 1000 meters. By the time I retired, we were using scopes with a 5X-21X power range, and we were able to hit accurately and consistently MUCH further with these 308 caliber rifles (not to mention more powerful calibers). This was the result of not only improved magnification, this went hand-in-hand with data collected from previous engagements, and knowledge of the environmental effects at that time and place, and factoring all of these elements into the shooting solution. There can also be circumstances where you can have "too much of a good thing". Zooming to the high end of your power range will almost always be a bad choice at closer distances, as your field of view will decrease with the increase in magnification. 10X is WAY too much for me at shorter distances (300 meters and in) and was a handicap when engaging targets at these close distances in the days of the fixed 10X scopes. The ACOG scope issued with the M4 carbine is 4X, and we used them to great effect to 400 meters and beyond with the 5.56 M4. When I am deer hunting here in Fl (which almost always results in shots at 100 meters or less) I dial my scope down to the bottom of its power setting- around 3X (depending on the scope and rifle being used).
 
FL-NC said:
As a general rule, being able to see the target better will usually improve the shooter's results downrange. After all, you can't hit what you can't see. When I first entered the "sniper world", our standard issue scope for the M24 SWS was a fixed 10X, later upgraded to a variable 3.5-10X on the M24 SWS. We qualified to 800 meters with these setups, and regularly pushed our limits out to 1000 meters. By the time I retired, we were using scopes with a 5X-21X power range, and we were able to hit accurately and consistently MUCH further with these 308 caliber rifles (not to mention more powerful calibers). This was the result of not only improved magnification, this went hand-in-hand with data collected from previous engagements, and knowledge of the environmental effects at that time and place, and factoring all of these elements into the shooting solution. There can also be circumstances where you can have "too much of a good thing". Zooming to the high end of your power range will almost always be a bad choice at closer distances, as your field of view will decrease with the increase in magnification. 10X is WAY too much for me at shorter distances (300 meters and in) and was a handicap when engaging targets at these close distances in the days of the fixed 10X scopes. The ACOG scope issued with the M4 carbine is 4X, and we used them to great effect to 400 meters and beyond with the 5.56 M4. When I am deer hunting here in Fl (which almost always results in shots at 100 meters or less) I dial my scope down to the bottom of its power setting- around 3X (depending on the scope and rifle being used).
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Hunting of all kinds requires a situational awareness and field of view not required in target shooting. My preference would suite the situation accordingly.
 
Walkalong said:
To what purpose are you going to ask the scope to perform?
Click to expand...

It was more a general query than helping with a decision. I don't often shoot more than 300 yards, with 400 being max thus far. Somewhere between 1 and 2 MOA is all I really ask of myself and my setup, though to be fair, you could probably stick me behind a precision rifle with a tuned load and I wouldn't do much better. So just another curiosity really.
 
WrongHanded said:
real world results
Click to expand...
Savage Axis 223 as it came from factory with 3x9 Bushnell. Replaced with Bushnell 6x18 Trophy with adjustable objective.
This gun has the standard "heavy" trigger.

Firing on 9 power vs 18 power. Not much difference at 100 yards. full.jpg full.jpg full.jpg Bottom target is on 18x.

I have 36x on my Rem 243 40x. Single shot. Great for 300 yards.
 
WrongHanded said:
It was more a general query than helping with a decision. I don't often shoot more than 300 yards, with 400 being max thus far. Somewhere between 1 and 2 MOA is all I really ask of myself and my setup, though to be fair, you could probably stick me behind a precision rifle with a tuned load and I wouldn't do much better. So just another curiosity really.
Click to expand...
After sight in I shot this target at 100 yards with my .308 and factory Core-Lokt ammo. The scope was set on 2X.
Sako .308 with Lieca 2-10x50 Sight in with Rem 150 Gr PSP CoreLokt.jpg

I shot this pig at over 150 yards with a 2-7 scope set on 2X.
1021.jpeg

I shot these two four shot groups at around 20X, don't really remember for sure.
RL15 vs RL15.5 Velocity Test - Target THR Size.JPG
 
The best groups I’ve ever shot in my life have all been shot with a $130 Simmons 6.5-20x40. There is nothing a scope can do to make a rifle more accurate of course but more magnification certainly helps to aim more precisely on smaller or more difficult to see targets. You can compensate for that by using a larger target that you can very repeatable align the crosshairs on. You can shoot well under 1 moa with a cheap 3-9 if you have a good target.

With a 20x you can clearly see and aim at the primer on an empty shotgun shell. At 3x or 4x the crosshairs on most scopes are 3 or 4 moa so it’s going to be quite the challenge to line up the crosshairs on something that size.
 
My experience is that quality magnification (equipment quality in general) will improve a shooter that already has talent. Providing excellent equipment to an excellent shot will usually produce better performance - the best equipment in the hands of average talent will usually remain average performance. In my mind, it still boils down to the talent behind the firearm.
 
My experience.
Bigger magnifications really help shooting from a solid bench rest type site. One can turn up the power and put the crosshair onto not just the center but what portion of the center desired.

However, for non bench shooting, like offhand or some expedient tree limb or stump, after one has been walking a ways, perhaps with a heart beat at the excitement level, a high magnification scope cross hair jiggles all over the county. That tends to dampen one's confidence and doesn't help matters.

Like most life questions, the answer depends on what one seeks. For hunting, a variable (almost impossible to find a fixed power scope of quality these days) 2-6x scope is most useful. Perhaps if hunting prairie dogs with the attendant fuss, one might go for the higher magnifications.
 
I believe that for folks shooting from an extremely stable platform, there is no upper limit. Pick the molecule you want to hit and have at it.

A lot of us don't shoot from that position, though, and the less stability you have, the lower your magnification should be. Try running up a ridge and then shooting a moving target offhand with a 36x scope and you will get the idea.

So I guess my answer to the question is "Sometimes. And sometimes not". Hope that helps!:D
 
I shot out to 800 yards tonight with my 8yr old son after school. I was behind my 6 creed with a 4.5-30x and he was behind my 6 Dasher with a 5-25x. I can tell you, even shooting our short 400yrd shots in warm up, we never turned down below 12x. Only in my last practice stages where I was practicing low magnification, fast transitions with all holdovers, 400 to 800 and back one shot each, did I come below 15x. I shoot where my wobble zone and mirage distortion feel good, allowing me to shoot quickly but without excessive wiggle in my target picture...

I know I’ve never fired a shot at 1400 yards or beyond below 20x... in doing so for over 20yrs several outings per year...

I will also say, the optics we had available on the market 20yrs ago, even 10 years ago simply weren’t what we have today. There used to be a narrow market of a few 6-24x50’s, often with exceptionally small vertical adjustment capacity, or the Leupold Competition scopes, a few flukes and freaks here and there, but otherwise, slim pickings... So we’d zoom in and notice chromatic aberration, poor resolution in relatively low quality glass, undersized exit pupils leaving dark optics... we’d see problems... Today, we can zoom in with a $750-1000 scope and have great clarity and brightness we simply didn’t have in most available optics before.
 
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