Autoloaders help me out

LiveLife said:

Thank you but my reply post #23 was not for OP rather member Hugger-4641 who posted several vague/incorrect information.

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I said following, fairly clearly I believe:
1. Yes he needs to resize.
2. No, trimming is normally not needed.
3. Yes he needs to flare, but slightly.
4. Yes he can crimp externally if he chooses, but only light crimp and the Lee seating die provides all the taper crimp needed.
So quote my post and explain what I said that was incorrect?

jmorris said:

If you don’t resize, it’s unlikely you will have sufficient neck tension to keep the bullet in place. It’s not uncommon at all for pistol bullets to not have a cannelure and neck tension is what we rely on to hold the bullet, not the crimp. Depending upon the projectile “crimp” for me might be just removing the bell or flare.

Going beyond that with say, plated bullets like the 4 on the right below, will just cause the bullet to be swaged smaller by the brass case. The brass “springs back” and the bullet remains the smaller diameter. So you loose neck tension and IME accuracy as well as, often, compromise the plating.

View attachment 1022826

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For me, heavy crimp is a must for my defense loads that gets chambered and unchambered dozens of times. I did a light crimp on my 95gn flat point, after 10-12 cycles, the cartridge separated and I got powder all over the internal of the gun. Making the pistol DEAD. So with all my defensive rounds, I heavy crimp for reliability even of accuracy suffers.

Since all the auto loading pistols use ammo that hold the bullet in place with neck tension, I resize every case I reload (new brass too). Some bottle necked cases get a neck sizing onlt, but that is considered "resizing" too. I flare all my cases, pistol, revolver, rifle, as pushing a .357" slug into a .353" tube without an "entry way" can be difficult with occasionad crunched case mouths and scraped/shaved bullets. I don't crimp any semi-auto ammo, I just "deflare" with a taper crimp die and plunk test and haven't considered headspacing in quite a while. Has worked for me for a quite a few handloads (32 ACP, 380 ACP, 9mm, 45 ACP)...

BTW, 357 Sig is considered a bottle necked case, even though the shoulder is quite small, which where the sizing controversy may come from...

Mark_Mark said:

For me, heavy crimp is a must for my defense loads that gets chambered and unchambered dozens of times. I did a light crimp on my 95gn flat point, after 10-12 cycles, the cartridge separated and I got powder all over the internal of the gun. Making the pistol DEAD. So with all my defensive rounds, I heavy crimp for reliability even of accuracy suffers.

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Uh Oh, now you've done it. Shortly we'll be flooded with the "don't use your own ammo for defense" crowd..."because Massad Ayoob said so 45 years ago in a shooting times article" and "the prosecutor will go after you" crowd. <sigh> this thread was excellent while it lasted....will be locked shortly I'm guessing.

Hugger-4641 said:

So quote my post and explain what I said that was incorrect?

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This is incorrect. 9mm needs taper crimp, not roll crimp.

Mark_Mark said:

For me, heavy crimp is a must for my defense loads that gets chambered and unchambered dozens of times

I heavy crimp for reliability even of accuracy suffers.

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This is incorrect. Heavy crimp can deform/reduce bullet diameter and will actually decrease neck tension and we already have myth busted.

If you experience significant bullet setback, check your bullet diameter and case wall thickness along with expander diameter and consider the following to minimize or eliminate bullet setback (Bullet setback myth busting thread) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

• If expanding too much, use less/minimal flare
• If using thinner wall brass, use thicker wall brass
• If using .355" sized bullet and above fails to improve neck tension, consider using larger .3555"-.356" sized bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

Not totally correct. When I started reloading semi-auto reloading I didn't have a taper crimp die for 9mm (can't remember why) so I used a 38 Spec roll crimp die. A semi-auto round does not get a "crimp" ( in the normal sense of bending/swaging the case mouth to hold the bullet), I was able to "deflare" with a roll crimp die. They are adjustable and don't have to actually roll the case mouth into a cannalure or groove or into the side of the bullet.

LiveLife said:

This is incorrect. 9mm needs taper crimp, not roll crimp.

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LiveLife said:

This is incorrect. 9mm needs taper crimp, not roll crimp.

​

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Ok, your post implied that I mis-informed the OP, which I take exception to.
I'll agree with you in spirit on crimp because I only taper crimp these myself. There are those who roll crimp cast bullets whether you agree with it or not.

horsey300 said:

I appreciate all the input, thank you all very much, you've confirmed my suspicion and I shall carry on as if I had never read the incorrect input with confidence!

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Yes, there is a lot of misinformation on the internet. Here's more on neck tension and quite a bit more on small internal case volume 9mm load development which can experience significant change from small changes in reloading variables - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509

Have fun reloading semi-auto calibers.

• Acceptable amount of bullet setback and correcting insufficient neck tension - With longer OALs (like 1.150"-1.160") that seat bullet base closer towards case mouth where case wall is thinner (Think less friction/tension against bullet base), less neck tension is applied and after bullet nose bumps the feed ramp, could experience greater bullet setback. With sufficient neck tension, there should be no bullet setback (especially for match grade rounds). For many reloaders making general purpose range blasting ammo, bullet setback of less than .005" is acceptable but greater bullet setback indicates poor neck tension that needs to be addressed.

• Make sure you are full length resizing the brass by checking for daylight between bottom of die and top of shell holder/shell plate during resizing. If you see daylight with ram in the uppermost position while resizing a case, lower the resizing die until it barely "kisses" the top of the shell holder/shell plate.

• Use shorter OAL to seat the bullet base deeper where the case wall is thicker to produce greater neck tension. This is why increasing the taper crimp amount at case mouth won't really improve poor neck tension as friction from taper crimp is overshadowed by much greater neck tension friction from thicker case wall applying force against bullet base. In this myth busting thread, I measured case wall thickness .100" and .200" below case mouth to illustrate the difference - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713820

• Use thicker case wall brass if using shorter OAL won't resolve poor neck tension issue. Unlike most other straight wall semi-auto calibers, 9mm uses tapered case which is wider at the base. Due to this reason, simply seating the bullet deeper and deeper won't continue to increase neck tension and eventually, the bullet will simply drop down from decreasing neck tension at some point. Based on my experience with various 115/124/125 gr RN bullets, this threshold is shorter than 1.100" and I do not load 115 gr FMJ/RN shorter than 1.100". This myth busting thread post lists bullet setback amount (or none) experienced by various headstamp brass using .354"/.355"/.3555"/.356" sized bullets (Yes, 9mm bullets come sized different) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

• Use larger sized bullets if using thicker case wall brass won't improve neck tension or thicker case wall brass is not available. This thread lists various brand and weight 9mm bullets and their sizing (FYI, some factory barrels are oversized at .356"+ and accuracy can benefit from using larger sized bullets) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

mdi said:

A semi-auto round does not get a "crimp" ( in the normal sense of bending/swaging the case mouth to hold the bullet), I was able to "deflare" with a roll crimp die. They are adjustable and don't have to actually roll the case mouth into a cannalure or groove or into the side of the bullet.

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I agree with this as flare is being returned flat on the bullet. (ETA, and resized case length needs to be equal as to not cut into the bullet or leave some flare out. )

But "light roll crimp" where case mouth is digging into the bullet, no.

Hugger-4641 said:

Ok, your post implied that I mis-informed the OP, which I take exception to.
I'll agree with you in spirit on crimp because I only taper crimp these myself. There are those who roll crimp cast bullets whether you agree with it or not.

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Please quote/link your sources.

I stand by 9mm requiring taper crimp and not roll crimp because I prefer to headspace off case mouth and not extractor (Those using shorter brass reloaded multiple times often don't realize they are already headspacing off extractor ).

98XC

EricBu said:

Uh Oh, now you've done it. Shortly we'll be flooded with the "don't use your own ammo for defense" crowd..."because Massad Ayoob said so 45 years ago in a shooting times article" and "the prosecutor will go after you" crowd. <sigh> this thread was excellent while it lasted....will be locked shortly I'm guessing.

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Thanks to the shortage of ammo, my excuse for using my ammo for self defense purposes will be that their was't any available self defense ammo to purchase so I had to make my own!

Walkalong said:

That’s doing it the hard way though.

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Yes, but if roll crimp die is all you got, better sort brass by resized length to equal so you don't roll crimp longer cases.

LiveLife said:

This is incorrect. 9mm needs taper crimp, not roll crimp.

​

This is incorrect. Heavy crimp can deform/reduce bullet diameter and will actually decrease neck tension and we already have myth busted.

If you experience significant bullet setback, check your bullet diameter and case wall thickness along with expander diameter and consider the following to minimize or eliminate bullet setback (Bullet setback myth busting thread) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

• If expanding too much, use less/minimal flare
• If using thinner wall brass, use thicker wall brass
• If using .355" sized bullet and above fails to improve neck tension, consider using larger .3555"-.356" sized bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453

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I’ve experimented with the crimps in a real world setting and For me that heavy crimp keeps the bullet in place especially with the daily cycle it goes through.

every 3 months I refresh the a ammo and turn the old stuff to range/training ammo.

runner3264 said:

98XC


Thanks to the shortage of ammo, my excuse for using my ammo for self defense purposes will be that their was't any available self defense ammo to purchase so I had to make my own!

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My excuse is.....'Merica. I've not bought commercial ammo for carry since the 80's. Though I have been known to stack commercial defense ammo deep when it's cheap, then trade it for things I want/need when it get's tight. One time, I got a complete Dillon 650, with case feeder and a conversion kit, and 9mm dies...for a case of Federal HST 147 grain LEO duty ammo that I bought for 300.00 6 years ago, then flipped the 650 a year later for a rifle and a handgun, which together were valued at 2200.00. Yep. Stack it deep boys, stack it deep.

Mark_Mark said:

I’ve experimented with the crimps in a real world setting

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I am sorry but bullet setback issue has been myth busted in detail in this thread using different sized bullets (.354", .355", .3555", .356") and various headstamp brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Myth busting was done by actually feeding dummy rounds from magazines in full-size/compact Glocks and we identified bullet diameter/headstamp brass combinations that produced ZERO bullet setback or minimized to help THR members and guests experiencing bullet setback issues.

Please check out the linked myth busting thread page and comment back.

Thanks.

Now, do factory ammunition experience bullet setback using new brass? Yes.

Do factory premium defense ammunition experience bullet setback? Yes.

So how can THR H&R members figure out what combination of different sized bullets and mixed range brass to eliminate bullet setback? The is the "High Road" and that's what some of us OCD members do for other members/guests. It's a curse I tell you.

For some, reloading is a hobby. For some of us, handloading is a passion.

LiveLife said:

I am sorry but bullet setback issue has been myth busted in detail in this thread using different sized bullets (.354", .355", .3555", .356") and various headstamp brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Myth busting was done by actually feeding dummy rounds from magazines in full-size/compact Glocks and we identified bullet diameter/headstamp brass combinations that produced ZERO bullet setback or minimized to help THR members and guests experiencing bullet setback issues.

Please check out the linked myth busting thread page and comment back.

Thanks.

Now, do factory ammunition experience bullet setback using new brass? Yes.

Do factory premium defense ammunition experience bullet setback? Yes.

So how can THR H&R members figure out what combination of different sized bullets and mixed range brass to eliminate bullet setback? The is the "High Road" and that's what some of us OCD members do for other members/guests. It's a curse I tell you.

For some, reloading is a hobby. For some of us, handloading is a passion.

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it didn’t set back, it popped out. and that’s why I heavy Lee CRIMP my 9mm defensive loads

I've experienced bullet set back from dropping rds on concrete, always inspect closely if dropped. If it's ever happened in my pistol, it got fired and I never knew.

Mark_Mark said:

it didn’t set back, it popped out. and that’s why I heavy Lee CRIMP my 9mm defensive loads

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Dang!

I have used Speer Gold Dot HP and Golden Saber JHP for decades as factory defensive ammunition and used bulk GD/GS bullets to load duplicate practice rounds using WSF (Now BE-86) using no heavy crimp, just adding .022" to the bullet diameter.

EricBu said:

Uh Oh, now you've done it. Shortly we'll be flooded with the "don't use your own ammo for defense" crowd..."because Massad Ayoob said so 45 years ago in a shooting times article" and "the prosecutor will go after you" crowd.

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We have beat the "justified shooting is justified shooting" regardless of ammunition used whether factory or reload in Legal subcategory.

I have no issues using my reloads which are more accurate and reliable than factory ammunition for defensive shooting. I just hate to have all of my reloading equipment and components taken by the police during the duration of trial for "evidence" in case they need to duplicate the ammo used in the shooting. It is so much easier to hand police the extra boxes of factory ammunition. But that's me. You do you.

LiveLife said:

Yes, this is the "High Road" and we should strive and work to set a higher standard and post "higher level" reloading information instead of vague/incorrect/misinformation.

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I haven't been on this site very long but I value all of the information included here. It's great to receive various opinions based on both experience and knowledge. I completely agree with LiveLife statement above which will help many who visit or belong to create the safest ammunition for their personal use. Thanks to all who contribute here!!!

LiveLife said:

Dang!

I have used Speer Gold Dot HP and Golden Saber JHP for decades as factory defensive ammunition and used bulk GD/GS bullets to load duplicate practice rounds using WSF (Now BE-86) using no heavy crimp, just adding .022" to the bullet diameter.

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I get it… but I unload my gun every time I get home and sometimes it’s 2 unload and load cycle. I just find a heavy crimp works longer.

LiveLife said:

Dang!

I have used Speer Gold Dot HP and Golden Saber JHP for decades as factory defensive ammunition and used bulk GD/GS bullets to load duplicate practice rounds using WSF (Now BE-86) using no heavy crimp, just adding .022" to the bullet diameter.


We have beat the "justified shooting is justified shooting" regardless of ammunition used whether factory or reload in Legal subcategory.

I have no issues using my reloads which are more accurate and reliable than factory ammunition for defensive shooting. I just hate to have all of my reloading equipment and components taken by the police during the duration of trial for "evidence" in case they need to duplicate the ammo used in the shooting. It is so much easier to hand police the extra boxes of factory ammunition. But that's me. You do you.

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If I’m involved in a defensive shooting my last worry is my gun or reload equipment getting in a evidence locker. I would only be worried about my Family and love ones coming home.

Mark_Mark said:

If I’m involved in a defensive shooting my last worry is my gun or reload equipment getting in a evidence locker.

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Some of us have enough reloading equipment and component supplies to fill several truck loads costing tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Mark_Mark said:

I would only be worried about my Family and love ones coming home.

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And you know, spouses are replaceable ... Wife's friends and cousins all had their husbands replaced already. Me? Nah ... After 28 years, I tell my wife she is irreplaceable ... I mean, where am I going to find another wife who likes to shoot and will put up with all of my shooting/reloading crap? Must be love.

Another station heard from.

My main present reloading is 9mm and .45 for moderate accuracy, high reliability shooting at USPSA and IDPA. Mixed brass and cheap coated or plated bullets.

Full length resize every case, every time.

No trimming required for auto cases.

Substantial flare, contrarian opinion. Case life is not a factor, I figure I will lose it before I wear it out. I have not made flares so deep as to reduce bullet pull (old term) and aggravate setback. I am more concerned with not scraping up coating, plating, or jacket on the case mouth. If it goes in the seating die, it is not flared too much.

Taper crimp enough to be SURE to remove flare. True, you cannot crimp a loose bullet tight, but you have to get that flare out. I have not crimped so hard as to cut through coating or plating or reduce bullet pull enough to aggravate setback.

I plunk the first rounds from a new setup to be sure they will chamber in MY gun(s), there are a lot of odd length chamber throats, manufacturers don't pay much attention to SAAMI or CIP specifications on that.
After OAL is set, I gauge the rest so I don't have to take the gun apart. I gauge 100% so I don't have to keep match and practice ammo separate.

Special situations.
I use range pickup cases, but you can't use all the brass you find. I had a run of WW 9mm so thin that it was not snug on a .3565" 145 gr cast bullet. I gently recovered my primers and scrapped the cases.
I once found some Hornady .45 ACPs that were too long. Apparently the factory load in new brass did ok, but it did not reload satisfactorily. I discarded the few offending cases rather than set up to trim them.

I am at present loading 124 gr coated 9mm. Standard carbide sizing dies are fine.
But occasionally I will load some 115 gr jacketed for defense gun practice or for my tailored GSSF Pocket load. Bearing surface diameter is smaller and shorter, not a lot of friction for good bullet pull. Then I screw in the EGW/Lee "U" die, with undersize carbide insert. That snugs them down real good. I just smile at the "coke bottle" contour.

Plated .452" 200 gr .45 ACP seems ok with the standard sizing die, but for 185 or 200 gr jacketed, the U die comes out. I have loaded some "carry grade" 200 gr XTP hollow points that way. They also get a cannelure stamped into the brass at the base of the bullet, like some factory loads.

I would not be without an M die for loading flat base or gas check rifle bullets, but the ones I have tried for pistol calibers were no help. The Lyman .45 does not have enough step to start a cast or coated bullet. The MR made as a Dillon "powder funnel" has almost no step, barely detectable on the plug, making no detectable difference on the case neck. I'd like to have them like my BPCR expanders with plenty of room.

As I said, this is for my "run n gun" shooting. If I am going to chronograph or shoot for group, I take more care, less flare, less crimp on same headstamp brass, frex.

Mark_Mark said:

For me, heavy crimp is a must for my defense loads that gets chambered and unchambered dozens of times.

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I would choose something other than plated bullets with no cannelure for that process/job.

jmorris said:

I would choose something other than plated bullets with no cannelure for that process/job.

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I’m using Coper jacket soft points