357 load development and casual observations

Please let us know if the magnum primers make any difference. I have used them but haven't seen any change with them. Some manuals caution against using them while others just say it's not necessary, with 2400.

Your loads should be well under safe maximum, if the gun is appropriate and in good condition. I have gone up to 15 grains without pressure signs, though recoil and noise became obnoxious. I have settled on 13 grains as my all-around charge with a cast 158 SWC.

Are your groups shot offhand?

Top and bottom of the ladder looks best. To my eye, anyway. May not be the tighterist groups but it looks like you had a good bead every shot and nothing went kattywonkers.

I use small rifle primers a lot of times with 4227 and 2400 - but not always. Depends on if I have any and how heavy the bullet I'm using is. I don't have my notes online for much of anything yet but I did scan in a bunch of older notes from back before I got the 6" 3-5-7 and my only .357's were a 2" Lawman, the 4" Lawman and 6-1/2" Blackhawk - I still have both of them. For the 140gr. Speer SJHP I have 15.2gr. 2400 or 18.5gr. H110 with a Federal 200 primer. Back in those days my full .357's were mostly H110 and 2400 loads and I don't use H110 for revolver anymore. Too much noise and fury signifying nothing. I only used IMR 4227 and back then only for the Marlin carbine. Don't have the Marlin or the 2" Lawman anymore.

Just as a side note, A 140gr. SJHP over 18.5gr. of H110 with a CCI 550 primer out of a 2" J-Frame Colt is about like holding onto a flash-bang with both hands while hailing a cab...

AJC1 said:

First trigger pull with brand new to me components always starts with a short prayer I dont blow my face off.

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I think that sounds like a real reasonable thing to do. A short prayer never hurt nothing.

Like with IMR4227, the closer you get to 100% case fill, the better 2400 will perform.... the unburnt powder and variations are telling you it's not in it's Happy Place, just yet.

You didn't mention what you are shooting those in...

AJC1 said:

Loaded up and shot my first batch of loads with 2400. This is the slowest pistol powder I have used to date and it definitely let's you know it's a much slower powder. This is a journey post like my 308 cast loads and I hope to help someone else, and if I do something dumb feel free to say so. I built a ladder from 12.4-13.8 in two tents increments. The primers used were from my dads loads that I broke down so I dont know the brand but they were standard. The cases were all federal range pickups sized and trimmed to a uniform length. The results.View attachment 1026104

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Nice Groups!!

IMR4227 in my 4" .41's isn't the best performer, either... I just don't think there is enough barrel. I would still work up to max with it, just to see what comes of it, however.

If you can see anything other than velocity variations in a pistol “ladder test”, you are one awesome shot! Since I shoot offhand, my accuracy criteria is consistent hits on my 50 yard, 12 inch gong target. If I can keep them all on at 50 yards, the round is accurate. I know there are people who can place their shots at 50 yards. Jim Collins was one of them:








I am totally amazed at Jim Collins ability to double action his revolvers and produce those 50 yard groups.

I copied Skeeter Skelton’s load of a 158 L with 13.5 grains 2400 in a 38 Special case. He only shot these in a 357 revolver, he used 38 Special cases, because back in the day, the ground at the range had more empty 38 Special cases than gravel!

I decided the same load in a 357 case had to be safe, and as far as I can hold, it is accurate.

Since gunpowder is blended plus or minus 10%, I decide on my own velocity criteria, which happens to be about a grain or two under the charge that case stick in a 357 and I will reload new powder lots to that speed. The assumption is, velocity=pressure. Which is not true, but is good enough for what I am doing.

I could bump up the jacketed loads a half a grain, but I am lazy, and when I load up several ammo cans of 158 lead bullets, I leave the charge setting the same and load up jacketed bullets.

I left the W296/H110 data as a reference, not much difference in a maximum load of W296 and my 2400 loads. And if there is a lot of unburnt powder, well so what. Learn to eject cases with the muzzle up. That way unburnt cases don’t fall under the extractor star and bind up the cylinder. I do that will all magnum powders, none of them burn 100%. Powder combustion is inefficient, and that is just the way it is.

Code:

 Colt Trooper MKIII 6" Barrel                       

158 gr LSWC  13.5 grs 2400  R-P cases WSP                  

30-Dec-15        T = 55 ° F                      

Ave Vel =1169                        
Std Dev =33                        
ES  =176.3                           
High  =1276                          
Low  =1100                          
N =24                              

158 gr LSWC  Lino  15.5 grs W296  3D cases CCI 500         
30-Dec-15        T = 55 ° F                      

Ave Vel =1156                        
Std Dev =53                          
ES  =203.4                           
High  =1285                          
Low  =1081                          
N =24                              

158 gr JHP 13.5 grs 2400  R-P cases WSP               
30-Dec-15        T = 58 ° F                      

Ave Vel =1108                        
Std Dev =18                        
ES  =49.86                           
High  =1140                          
Low  =1090                         
N =6

AJC1 said:

There is zero chance you will not end up with a pistol so this is for both of us

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Already eyeballing a .357 single action… thank for the leg work!

AJC1 said:

My current dispenser of freedom seads is a 4" colt trooper, from my grandfather.

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My two favorite pill dispensers for that prescription:

Lawman Mk V and a 357. The longer barrel on the 357 gives it a much nicer sight picture but they both balance really well.

AJC1 said:

I really like how nossler presents its data but 8.3 inch barrel really????View attachment 1026185

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I’m about to start on the Enforcer journey with the two above Colts. Meet you in the middle.

Man, you guys are making me realize how much I regret selling the '63 built Trooper.

I have in mind a Blackhawk somewhere in the future. For now I suck it up with a M-60. And a 77/357.

FWIW:

With a little testing it's fairly easy to improve the performance of your 357 loads. The brass ,crimp, type of expander used all play a part in how the powder performs. After the brass is dialed in the bullet selection makes huge differences in performance. How far out they're seated into the cylinders, alloy, body length, crimp groove/depth of cannelure all play a role in accuracy and velocity.

Awhile back I decided to do a little testing looking for a sd/hd load for a l-comp 586.


I decided on this bullet and used 8/9bhn pc'd bullets sized to .358" testing both hp & fn versions of the bullet.


I like this bullet because the nose of the bullet reaches out the filling the leade's of the cylinders (bottom bullet is out in the leade).


Cylinder gap looses +/- 10fps for every 1/1000th". Using 38spl's in a 357 cylinder looses 10fps+. If the bullet has to travel/jump to seal the cylinders the load looses fps and more importantly. The short start pressures go do making slower powders burn less efficient.

I used that 2 1/2" bbl'd l-comp 357
2 4" bbl'd 357's (same revolver 2 different bbl's)
3 6" bbl;'d 357's (revolvers)
8" bbl'd 357 (revolver)
10" contender 357 bbl

I used full house loads of 2400 VS MP-300 VS H110

When the testing was done the 2 1/2" bbl performed the best with 2400 producing 1200fps+. The bbl was too short for the MP-300 & H110.
They all performed pretty much the same with the 4" bbl's (1300fps).
The MP-300 & H110 started outperforming the 2400 in the 6" bbl's with both doing 1450fps+ (1400fps with 2400)
The 8" bbl did 1500fps with MP-300 & H110 (1450fps with 2400)
The 10" bbl'd contender did 1600fps+ with MP-300 & H110 ( 1500fps+ with 2400)

I settled on the 14.7gr 2400/170gr bullet for that snubnosed l-comp'd 357 doing 1200fps. Really wasn't too concerned with accuracy, that load easily held 3" @ 50ft.

When you start seeing a lot of unburnt powder, low velocities or fliers in your groups when using slow powders in your 357 loads. It's a tell tail sign of weak brass/poor short start pressures and worst case inconsistent ignition from light springs in the revolvers.

Typical 6-shot groups @ 50ft using junk brass that looked like the puppy played with it for a week before reloading. The tell tail fliers

kcofohio said:

Man, you guys are making me realize how much I regret selling the '63 built Trooper.

I have in mind a Blackhawk somewhere in the future. For now I suck it up with a M-60. And a 77/357.

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I was looking for a 77/357 when I found the 77/44. Bout broke my arm reaching for my wallet: $375 OTD NIB. Never did find a 77/357.

GeoDudeFlorida said:

I was looking for a 77/357 when I found the 77/44. Bout broke my arm reaching for my wallet: $375 OTD NIB. Never did find a 77/357.

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Wow, you got a good deal there!

AJC1 said:

I loaded 4227 and tested in.my buddies 6" s and w. That is now for 308 play lead rounds. 2400 seems to slow in a 4". I will test a mag primer and see. I'm just working my way down the chart.

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Well, I consider IMR4227 and 2400 to be in the same ballpark, burn rate-wise, but how they do it is a little different, or so it seemed to me in my limited testing.

When I first started loading IMR4227, in the .41MAG, the middle of the pack load (19.5grn under a 215grn cast) was horrible in both my 4" and 6" pistols. I decided to burn it up in my Marlin, so I bumped the charge up to an even 20grn and loaded 700 of them... that's when everything shaped up. While they were excellent in the Marlin, of course, I figured... why not give it a try in the pistol, again? By the time I was done, I had started at the 200yd gong, and worked my way out to the 500yd gong, about 3' x 4' or so... and was making 6 for 6 hits with it, this with a 4" pistol fired off my knees. The load wasn't nearly as dirty as it was just .5grn before, so I obviously found somewhere it liked.

My experiments with 2400, compared to IMR4227, in the .41, showed me what I had found years ago as well... 2400 didn't work as well as IMR4227... for me, at least. I could never quite get the accuracy out of it I got with IMR4227. I probably should have kept working with it, but I didn't see where it would have wound up better than IMR4227, and abandoned my testing.

This is, of course, just my .02 worth. I think you are on the right path, anyway... it sounds like you have the time, so keep working with it. If you don't get the results you want, it wouldn't hurt to try a dash of IMR4227...