Side by side Shotguns.

Speedo66 said:

Same thing I wonder about the many brands of Spanish motorcycles that disappeared. I was on an off road motorcycle ride from this past Wed. to Sun., and one person was there on a Bultaco. Had me thinking of all the Spanish marques there used to be, but the Japanese put so many British manufacturers out of business too, perhaps for the same reasons you mention above. Failure to modernize, and not making what the market wanted.

As far as SxS's, the only one I've got is an American working man's gun, a Springfield 5100, same as a Stevens 311.

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Good evening.

I hope you had a good time riding. One thing I envy about the US is that you've still got lots of wide open spaces, where no one bothers you if you're riding a motorbike, or out shooting etc. It's a trifle cramped here, and there are very few places where one can ride off road for any length of time.

Blimey, Bultaco! I've not seen or heard one of those for a couple of decades or more. Bultaco and Montessa used to be the bikes to beat off road. Both Spanish, and both long gone.
Indeed there were many Spanish motorcycle manufacturers. Derbi are still going, but they're owned by Piaggio I believe. The only other Spanish make I remember that we saw over here briefly, was Sanglas in the late 70's early 80's they made an odd 400cc single. It was quite good, but not up to the Japanese bikes of the day, so it didn't last long.
I can't speak for anywhere else, but the decline of manufacturing in the UK can be blamed equally on Management, Governments, and Trade Unions, end of!
Our largest motorcycle manufacturer was BSA/Triumph. The worlds largest bike maker in 1957, and bankrupt by 1972! Quite a feat eh?
There are a couple of videos on YouTube. One is called BSA factory Tour from about 1960. It's done in the rather patronising 'jolly hockeysticks' manner that used to be popular over here. In fact it's utter corporate horseshit!....They never made 'em that well!
The other is called the Decline of BSA. It finishes in about 1975 after the government sponsored merger with Norton Villiers failed. There's a bit in it about auctioning off the machinery. The auctioneers were surprised to find the some of the machinery dated from 1906!
Basically BSA/Triumph is a microcosm of how NOT to do it.

Being a fan of US shotguns I've read about the 5100/311, yet never seen one in the metal. Nothing fancy, but does what it says on the tin!


Cheers.


Stewart.

MacAR said:

It's one of my favorites to squirrel hunt with, being as it's light and holds several shells. And you can empty the darn thing in hurry, should the need arise. Possibly my favorite shotgun of all time. So much so, I'm looking for a 12 gauge sibling for it. Just can't justify paying the money that most of the collectors want for them right now.

My understanding is that squirrels aren't considered "game" animals in the UK like they are here. We hunt them for fun; as a matter of fact, my friends and I have dogs just for the purpose of treeing them. Most of us use 22 rifles as they tend to sit tight, but one of us always carries a shotgun for the runners. I either carry the Baikal sxs or the M12 pump when it's my turn. The pump holds 7 shots, and I only carry 7 or 8 more in my pocket. Weight is a big consideration when covering as much ground as we do. It's nothing to walk 4 or 5 miles on a morning or afternoon hunt; heck we've been known to stay out all day from daylight to dark. Best we ever done was 44 squirrels in one day. We stopped at noon and cooked 5 or 6 just to lighten the load!

Mac

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Good evening.


You're right about the prices Model 12's go for nowadays. I've seen a few on US gun sales sites, and the prices are a bit eye watering!

Yes indeed Squirrels aren't considered 'game' in the UK, (probably because they're cute and bushy tailed). Although they can be a bloody nuisance! When I used to shoot live, I used to go for them. It helped to have two people, one to flush 'em round the back of the tree, and one to whack 'em when they get there!
Indeed when out walking for any length of time an excessive number of cartridges in one's pockets is a drag. I went on a Goose shoot once, and I took 30 3 inch 1 and 7/8 ounce cartridges. I felt like I was wearing diving boots after the first couple of miles!

Speaking of Dogs. I used to have a Terrier mongrel called Bdog who used to decimate wildlife at any opportunity. He was always catching Rabbits, Rats, and Squirrels. It was in his nature. He killed a Squirrel in front of a School party once in a local park. One of the teachers accused me of "allowing my dog to murder the Squirrel"
I always think that when one has been judged leave 'em something to remember you by. So I said the she should be thanking Bdog for showing the children real life, and nature in the raw! The look on her face was priceless!


Cheers.


Stewart.

MacAR said:

My pap showed me a trick years ago; chunk a rock behind the tree (with your off-hand) and be ready to shoot. He'll hear the rock, and run 'round the tree. Then let drive with the scattergun, and down he'll come. Works about 90% of the time when hunting alone.



They'd hate my Sam; she despises furry creatures (with exception to "her" cats) and will "murder" every single varmint that dares cross the yard.

If you've never eaten squirrel, I have a couple excellent recipes for them. My favorite way to eat them is with dumplings over fried corn bread.

Mac

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Good trick with the rock. If I ever take up live shooting again I'll give that a bash.

It's funny how some dogs just can't stand small furry creatures. I had a tiny Patterdale Terrier too who thought that she was a Rottweiler! She would knobble every Rat and Mouse that she could catch. Yet my current best friend is a cross between a Jack Russell terrier and a Staffy. He just wags his tail at any Squirrel or Pigeon he sees

I have cooked Squirrel on a couple of occasions. I cooked it in a slow cooker with vegetables and gravy, and damn tasty it was too! I doubt that my other half would like it however. She eats lambs liver, but that's about it.


Cheers.


Stewart.

Pete D. said:

I have four SXSs…..a Parker DH, an old Ithaca Flues, a LeFever and an IZH-43.
The Parker is my favorite but, truth be told, it is heavy and gets left home most of the time. The Ithaca is in the same category as the Parker….and older. The LeFever is a fine shooter but it started doubling and two gunsmiths have not been able to fix it. The Russian gun, single selective trigger, has also shown a tendency to double.

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Good morning Pete.


Blimey! You have three classic American doubles! Out of those three the only one I've ever seen is a Parker shotgun. I think it was from the 1930's. I never got a chance to shoot it, but it felt very high quality, and looked extremely well made.
Unfortunately I've never seen a LeFever or an Ithaca Flues in the metal. I read somewhere that it was the Flues that drove several other gun makers out of the double barrel market it was that good.

Single triggers on SxS's do seem to be a bit problematic. Your IZH43 (we call them Baikals over here), is otherwise built like a tank. In twin trigger form they rarely go wrong. They're not imported anymore due to a European embargo on certain Russian products after the nastiness in the Crimea a few years ago.
It's a pity, because they were good and a cheap, and provided a lot of people with a new gun at an affordable price.

The absolute worst gun I ever owned was a Winchester model 23. It looked really good, and I exchanged a very good Beretta 686 (that I couldn't hit a barn door with) plus some cash for it.
First time out the forend came off mid shot. Second time out the one ejector stopped working, and the third time out it started doubling. The shop I bought it from were most unhelpful. They claimed that it couldn't possibly have been doubling as the type of trigger mechanism it has wouldn't allow it.
They fixed the forend and the ejector, but it still doubled occasionally.
I ended up taking it to bits myself, I cleaned the trigger mechanism and removed a few tiny burrs from certain parts. I put about 350 shots through it without an problem and sold it at quite a loss.
My 'new' side by side is a twin trigger. They take a while to get used to but they rarely go wrong.


Cheers.


Stewart.

Speedo66 said:

Sad double story: we had a case many years ago where a young burglar stole a Winchester 21 and not knowing its worth, proceeded to cut the stock and barrels to make it pistol size.

He got caught doing street stickups with it, getting a paltry $5 and $10 a time. Little did he know even on the street or from a shady pawn shop he might have gotten hundreds, maybe much more if he was able to contact a collector.
When the owner came in to testify the look of horror on his face when he saw it was heart rendering.

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That is indeed a sad story. Let's hope the young Sh1tbag got an extra few years tacked on to his sentence for sheer vandalism! One has to feel sorry for the owner.

If someone steals something (which is detestable in any case). It always seems worse when the item is wrecked. If he'd stolen it because he wanted one it wouldn't seem so bad. Although I'd still chop his knackers off! As I can't stand thieves!


Cheers.


Stewart.

Speedo66 said:

Unfortunately, he did not. He pleaded guilty and was able to get the burglary sentence and the armed robbery sentences to all run concurrently.

But, at least he got some state time, nowadays seems like that's becoming a rare occurrence.

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Good morning all.


That happens a lot over here too. Discount for a guilty plea and concurrent sentences. Plus a lot of crimes that should get a custodial sentence don't. It's down to cost and overloaded prisons I think.

entropy said:

I thought that was done away with with the Act of Union in 1707 or such. (Except for the Irish!)

Or was it Bobby Peel who dunaway with it?

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I don't know who did away with it. Perhaps we should all find out and we could go and spit on his/her grave!

troy fairweather said:

I've been enjoying my new baker hammered 12 using pyrodex I'd like to find a newer sxs some day I can afford. I've had a few Spanish guns and these were pretty well built and worked nice but bills came around.
I've had a few other American hammer guns a few Belgium guns all were good, I like loading with bp/pyrodex but a modern gun I don't have to pick a chose shells would be nice. Still really won't a front stuffer sxs, my 15ga single barrel is getting me by for now tho.

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Black powder is fun to shoot, the smoke and noise certainly turns heads. One rarely sees anyone using it over here. Indeed a good modern gun would make life easier.

Seedy Character said:

I have always wanted a 10ga SxS, to load BP and shoot Cowboy Action.

I have looked at 2.
The first was an 1888 with Damascus barrel. Didn't feel the Damascus was safe. Had to pass.
The second was a 1910 manufacture. Nice gun, but a bit more than I was willing to pay and he wasn't negotiating.

I am probably crazy, but I don't care. Getting some brass shells and loading BP should be an attention better.

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There are a couple of cowboy action shooting clubs over here, but they're all miles away from me which is a shame because it looks like great fun.
There are a couple of practical shotgun set ups closer to me which I have done a couple of time, although not recently.
The problem is that ideally one needs a shotgun with a large magazine capacity which requires a firearm certificate, and these are difficult to get. If one only has a shotgun certificate, any repeating shotgun must be restricted to a maximum of three shots. This is done by crimping the magazine tube. Firearms regulations over here are very tight.

You're not crazy, and keep looking, for something suitable will turn up.


Cheers.


Stewart.

troy fairweather said:

There's a lovely video of you brits on YouTube, they did a day with older sxs, think they were hunting pheasant many old hammer sxs and some front stuffers. Most it was there first time using a sx s or black powder area guns, they seemed to really enjoy it.

Wish we had more English sxs here that are affordable, some how I've not owed one yet.

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Good morning.


I do like the term 'front stuffer'
There are a few organised black powder days, or SxS days. Most people enjoy shooting something that they're not used to. We're a funny bunch, and there are quite a number of snobs in the shooting world.
Back in the 80's and 90's when pump gunners like myself were very rare at clay clubs, I got used to people looking down their noses at me. However, if I offered them a go with any of my pump guns they would invariably take me up on it, and they would enjoy it too.
There are lots of English SxS's for sale over here at reasonable money. Obviously the best guns like Purdey's etc stll command high prices, but one can find something like a BSA, or Cogswell and Harrison in good working order for $2-300.


Cheers.


Stewart.

cfullgraf said:

My daughter and son in law live in Brightwell—cum-Sotwell.

Over in this side od the pond, American Skeet has 28 ga and .410 Bore as part if the competition. This keeps 28 ga. as a viable commercial gauge. I’m not sure what keeps 16 ga. active.

When we lived in the UK in the early 1960’s, my dad had Purdey make a custom case for a match set of side by side Charles Daley side by sude shotguns, one 12 ga, the other in 16 ga. The guns had been my paternal grandfather’s.

For competition shotguns, things have evolved over time. At least in the US, the pump shotgun was the gun to shoot skeet in the 1930’s-1940’s. Over time, the over/umder and auto shotgun took over.

For hunting, there are different requiremets that mske the different action styles till relevent.

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Good morning.


They live in South Oxfordshire, which is a prettty part of the country. As said, there are a couple of good clay grounds out that way.

Oddly enough I was talking to a mate of mine the other day, and he's just bought a 16 gauge O/U. As I haven't shot for over 10 years I'm a bit out of it. Apparently 16 gauge is becoming popular again over here.
When I started shooting the standard load for clays was 32g, then in the 90's 28g took over. Now a lot of folks shoot with 24g cartridges. So I guess a 16 gauge gives people the option of firing a heavier load than a 20 whilst still being light.

I've often though it would be a good thing to have competitions using smaller gauges like 28 or .410, but it doesn't seem to happen over here.

In the majority of the US you're brought up with guns, and recreational shooting is for everyone, but shooting was a very elite thing to do in the UK, and there was a lot of snobbery involved.
The O/U was what virtually every shooter over here was using for clays when I took up shooting in the early 80's. Even autos were frowned upon, and pump guns were very unpopular.
There was this view that autos and pumps were 'dangerous' because it's more difficult to tell when they're empty. Well keep it pointed upwards and have an empty cartridge sticking out of the breech sideways.
Our firearms laws have been getting progressively tighter and there are fewer shooters, so the clay clubs are more welcoming to those like myself that shoot something different.

I've very nearly copped it twice at clay grounds both times from the 'not so dangerous' O/U. Once when a chap came into the club house and took his gun out of the slip and started practising his mounting whilst pointing in my direction without checking his gun first. I yelled at him and there was a cartridge in the bottom barrel. He got thrown out!
The other time was when a chap had a misfire he turned straight round and it went off and blew a hole in the ground about a yard in front of me. I had to resist the temptation to bend his gun round his neck!
It's people that are dangerous, and not the guns themselves of whatever type.


Cheers.


Stewart.

toivo said:

I'm a child of the '60s-'70s, and as a motorcycle fan back then, I remember Bultaco and Montesa well. Also Ossa. Bultacos really had a cult following among my teenage motorcycle friends. I used to go to the local scrambles track on Sundays, and the dirtbike competition world was in a transitional phase where the two-stroke Spanish bikes were putting the British "thumpers" in the shade. Then the Japanese got into the game and slaughtered them all.

Anyway, somebody smarter than me points out that Spain had strong anti-import policies that died with Generalissimo Franco in 1975. Those policies had protected the motorcycle industry, which went into decline shortly thereafter. Maybe the Spanish gun industry suffered the same fate.

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Good afternoon.


Indeed the Jap bikes slaughtered them all. Mind you, when you look at what us Brits were making in the 70's it's no surprise. BSA= Bits stuck anywhere!

That's a good point about Franco's policies. I believe that in about 1980 a number of Spanish gun makers were with govenment assistance formed into an organisation called DIARM in order to protect the industry. It collapsed, or ran out of money circa 1988 and a lot of the gun makers sadly went with it.


Cheers.


Stewart.

doubleh said:

Indeed they are. I just ran into a 20 ga. CZ SxS in a gunshop last week. It was beautiful little gun and fit me perfectly. Too bad it wasn't available back when I could still run fast enough to hunt blue quail.

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Good afternoon.


We see the odd Brno shotgun over here. I don't know if they come from the same people that make CZ. They look pretty well made and durable.

I know what you mean about slowing down with age..........I may have to take up Tortoise hunting.......


Cheers.


Stewart.