AR 15?

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MistWolf said:
Quality and solvency are not always related



Do you have documentation that the civilian Colt ARs were of a lower quality than the military Colt ARs? Or were built to a different or lower standard?



The desire for chrome lined barrels was primarily driven by those who carried ARs professionally, trained professionals and serious shooters taking carbine classes. Many of those didn't come from a firearms background per se. For many of them, the AR, M9 and Glock was their introduction to firearms. It was determined the Colt was the AR least likely to give problems during high round count training classes and someone decided to see how Colts differed from other offerings. One of those features was a chrome lined chamber and barrel. When that came to light, it gave impetus to the market without understanding the advantages and disadvantages of lined and unlined and moly steel and stainless steel barrels.

What does the number of hunting rifles with chrome barrels have to do with this discussion? Nothing. While many ARs never see any use more serious than the occasional shot at a coyote, many ARs are still put to serious use and can see several hundred rounds put through them in a weekend than any hunting rifle.





This is where I call BS on the whole CHF business. Not on you, Gunny, I mean the industry as a whole. CHF was developed by the Germans in WWII to churn out a lot of barrels quickly and cheaply. CHF barrels were used in many post war sporting rifles because they're cheaper and faster to produce. So, why are CHF AR barrels more expensive?



I've been told Colt compared their US button rifled barrels to their Canadian CHF barrels for durability and found the CHF barrels were a bit better, but not enough to change from button rifled barrels. In my opinion, CHF barrels are not needed, nor do I see any reason to pay extra for one.
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I worked several years with firearms. Spending many hours in the lad working with firearms examiners. Several of the Examiners are personal friends of mine. Three of them have been on special tours of Colt’s factories within the last six years. These tours were done with BATF. So you can say that I have a little bit of inside information.
Another tidbit of information on Colt. At times, Stag Arms was a subcontractor for Colt Defense Ind.
The part about CHF barrels is that they are rated for higher rate of fire and will hold up to heavier use. CHF barrels have come a long way since WWII. Most of your major rifle companies use them on their rifles.
What does hunting rifles got to do with chrome line bores? It’s the fact that chrome line bores are not needed on most guns, not even on most ARs. a chrome lined bore has to be cut over sized and they lined. Before Nitride treatment became a standard on AR barrels, there was a big difference in the quality. A standard parkerized barrel on an AR just didn’t work well. That was proven in the early part of the Vietnam war.
What makes nitride treated barrels so good is that the treatment makes the metal surface hard and more wear resistant. The black color is just a byproduct of the treatment that looks nice. And the tend to be more accurate then chrome line bores.
Here’s a pic of the Anderson lower that Colt used at one time.
39936551-2868-4665-8259-D046FE383DB9.jpeg
And here’s one with the Anderson brand. If you do a search, you can also find this lower with the Wilson Combat logo on it.
2594359E-D5D0-4D7F-9D9B-FAEE2A3ECB99.jpeg

But we’re getting way off topic from what the OP is asking.
 
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You can't speak negatively about Colt without immediately offending a fanboy. It's like they have this sixth sense for when someone posts something less than stellar about Colt, they immediately know and make a mad dash for their computer for a rebuttal. Doesn't matter if it's a Colt 1911 or Colt AR. Fanboys be fanboy-ing. LOL
 
To the Original Post, I have 2 Palmetto State Armory rifles, one a 16" barrel with scope and the other a 20" barrel with the detachable carry handle peep sights and fixed front site post integral to the gas block. I use mine the same as you describe your use, mostly target shooting and possibly for varmint control, though I have not done so.

For my use the PSA rifles have been excellent. I am not depending on them for serious social use, nor am I competing with them, but I've had untold hours of fun shooting them and making up rifle specific hand loads for them. Both have been extremely reliable, except my 16" barrel does not like Tula steel cased ammo. Other than that, both have been 100% reliable. If you hand load, or you can sort through a couple of different factory ammo brands, you can find something the PSA rifles shoot well. For paper punching fun on a budget, don't let anyone tell you the PSA rifles won't shoot and I think you'd be well served by them.
IMG_0342[1].JPG
The load on the left was confirming the 20" barreled rifle did not like that load. Evidently I was correct. The load on the right is the one developed for this rifle.

IMG_0297[1].JPG
This is the same load from the 16" barrel. This was a coincidence. This load was not developed for the 16" rifle. The most accurate factory loads I've tried were Hornady 223 Remington 75 grain Match and, somehow, Frontier (Hornady) 223 Remington 55 grain FMJ. These weren't as accurate as the pictures, but were close. I don't normally do mag dumps or rapid fire type shooting, so cannot comment on either rifles behavior under such circumstances. The range I frequent has a 3-second delay rule for "rapid" firing. After having my target stand shot up when loaning it out, I cannot disagree with that rule. Unfortunately I cannot speak for any other brand and have not built one from scratch, so cannot comment on components in that regard. I did assemble the lowers for both mine from parts kits, and had a little hiccup on the adjustable stock castle nut coming loose, but that was because I didn't tighten or stake it properly. That has been remedied and I haven't had any issues since.
 
I haven't read through the thread since my last post but I don't think I got the Colt vs. ----- ball rolling, I only suggested Colt in terms of being a good quality benchmark for a heavy use duty grade rifle. I don't actually have one, I would own one if they weren't a $700-$800 rifle selling for $1200. I firmly believe the pony will cost you dearly, you'll have a good rifle you'll just spend a lil more than you probably need to when you can get comparable quality for a bit less.
 
One added bonus of dealing with PSA is that if you have a problem, you can be pretty sure they will get you sorted out to your satisfaction. At least that's how it used to be. Of course there are exceptions, but I've seen people comment on the site about a problem and the very same day a rep is writing to them and telling them they have a prepaid shipping label on the way and a new upper being shipped right out. That kind of thing.

I imagine buying a complete rifle off the rack from other manufacturers, while reputable and may eventually get you taken care of, I think it's more of a hassle to deal with a complete rifle for warranty/customer service problems, should you have one. Which you probably won't, it's just something I consider.
 
In general the main components are no better or worse with the exception of barrels and bolts. The good news is the nitride process has been closing the gap as has the insistence from buyers for full M-16 carriers and 158 bolts.

The real problem as has been pointed out several times are things like springs and correct buffers. Those are cheap to replace IF people bother to follow through. It took me awhile, watched so many threads resolved with minor parts that made me a believer.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
I worked several years with firearms. Spending many hours in the lad working with firearms examiners. Several of the Examiners are personal friends of mine. Three of them have been on special tours of Colt’s factories within the last six years. These tours were done with BATF. So you can say that I have a little bit of inside information.
Click to expand...
Is there documentation of civilian Colt ARs being built to a lower standard?

Another tidbit of information on Colt. At times, Stag Arms was a subcontractor for Colt Defense Ind.
Click to expand...
That just means Stag can manufacture AR parts up to standard when they want.

The part about CHF barrels is that they are rated for higher rate of fire and will hold up to heavier use. CHF barrels have come a long way since WWII. Most of your major rifle companies use them on their rifles.
Click to expand...
I didn't say there's anything wrong with a CHF barrel. They're fine barrels. I just think there's something wrong with paying more for a barrel thats more economical to make.

What does hunting rifles got to do with chrome line bores?
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Hunting rifle barrels to AR barrels is apples to oranges.

I don't think chrome lining is needed for an AR. I have chrome lined barrels, unlined barrels and QPC coated barrels. I have barrels made from different barrel steels. They all have advantages and disadvantages.

Colt puts out some mighty fine chrome lined barrels and according to Molon's testing, capable of good precision- especially the 14.5" SOCOM.
 
I forgot that part. I did have a minor issue with my 16" PSA rifle. The gas block was turned ever so slightly so it was barely touching the hand rail. I'm fortunate enough to live near a PSA retail store, so I just carried my upper in there and they worked on it right away. I had to tweak it when I got home, but after watching them it was no problem. How much difference did it make in accuracy? I don't know. Probably none. I had the rifle about a year before I even noticed. After that I was never going to be able to let it go. I once missed an 8" target completely at 200 yards. I'm sure I would have hit dead center if the gas block had been isolated from the hand rail. Had nothing to do with the nut behind the trigger.
 
MistWolf said:
Is there documentation of civilian Colt ARs being built to a lower standard?


That just means Stag can manufacture AR parts up to standard when they want.


I didn't say there's anything wrong with a CHF barrel. They're fine barrels. I just think there's something wrong with paying more for a barrel thats more economical to make.


Hunting rifle barrels to AR barrels is apples to oranges.

I don't think chrome lining is needed for an AR. I have chrome lined barrels, unlined barrels and QPC coated barrels. I have barrels made from different barrel steels. They all have advantages and disadvantages.

Colt puts out some mighty fine chrome lined barrels and according to Molon's testing, capable of good precision- especially the 14.5" SOCOM.
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I really don’t think that this topic is the place to discuss the finer points of a company that has had trouble keeping it’s door open, under the same owners, for decades. Hopefully, now that they are owned by a real gun company, CZ will make it a profitable company.
 
General Geoff said:
All existing firearm designs were once unproven, I'm confident the KP-15 monolithic lower made from 30% glass reinforced nylon will stand the test of time just as the first generation Glock and the Remington Nylon 66 have. :)
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I hear you, and encourage everyone to get what ever they want, it is just the characterization of "cry once" that throws me off. Leap of faith is all fine and good, but in general polymer AR lowers aren't well regarded. This one may be different, and I know that monolithic have been around for a while and quite honestly don't know the rep on them, but there are a couple of stress points on the lower that are solved with the monolithic so perhaps it is much better.
 
ColoradoMinuteMan said:
I hear you, and encourage everyone to get what ever they want, it is just the characterization of "cry once" that throws me off. Leap of faith is all fine and good, but in general polymer AR lowers aren't well regarded. This one may be different, and I know that monolithic have been around for a while and quite honestly don't know the rep on them, but there are a couple of stress points on the lower that are solved with the monolithic so perhaps it is much better.
Click to expand...


There is a ton of info available on YouTube which details why poly lowers have had problems in the past (going back to the 70’s-80’s experiments with them which most people are unaware of), and the difference with the new generation of monolithic poly lowers is that by integrating the stock into the lower you cut out the one major point of failure that is associated with the idea which is cracking of the lower around the rear takedown pin. The Cav Arms lowers which were available a decade ago had already mostly solved that issue and the newer iterations have done even more to improve the concept. My next AR lower will likely be a KP-15.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
I worked several years with firearms. Spending many hours in the lad working with firearms examiners. Several of the Examiners are personal friends of mine. Three of them have been on special tours of Colt’s factories within the last six years. These tours were done with BATF. So you can say that I have a little bit of inside information.
Another tidbit of information on Colt. At times, Stag Arms was a subcontractor for Colt Defense Ind.
The part about CHF barrels is that they are rated for higher rate of fire and will hold up to heavier use. CHF barrels have come a long way since WWII. Most of your major rifle companies use them on their rifles.
What does hunting rifles got to do with chrome line bores? It’s the fact that chrome line bores are not needed on most guns, not even on most ARs. a chrome lined bore has to be cut over sized and they lined. Before Nitride treatment became a standard on AR barrels, there was a big difference in the quality. A standard parkerized barrel on an AR just didn’t work well. That was proven in the early part of the Vietnam war.
What makes nitride treated barrels so good is that the treatment makes the metal surface hard and more wear resistant. The black color is just a byproduct of the treatment that looks nice. And the tend to be more accurate then chrome line bores.
Here’s a pic of the Anderson lower that Colt used at one time.
View attachment 1032921
And here’s one with the Anderson brand. If you do a search, you can also find this lower with the Wilson Combat logo on it.
View attachment 1032922

But we’re getting way off topic from what the OP is asking.
Click to expand...

Oh man, those guys on reddit would have a cow:rofl:
 
DMW1116 said:
To the Original Post, I have 2 Palmetto State Armory rifles, one a 16" barrel with scope and the other a 20" barrel with the detachable carry handle peep sights and fixed front site post integral to the gas block. I use mine the same as you describe your use, mostly target shooting and possibly for varmint control, though I have not done so.

For my use the PSA rifles have been excellent. I am not depending on them for serious social use, nor am I competing with them, but I've had untold hours of fun shooting them and making up rifle specific hand loads for them. Both have been extremely reliable, except my 16" barrel does not like Tula steel cased ammo. Other than that, both have been 100% reliable. If you hand load, or you can sort through a couple of different factory ammo brands, you can find something the PSA rifles shoot well. For paper punching fun on a budget, don't let anyone tell you the PSA rifles won't shoot and I think you'd be well served by them.
View attachment 1032943
The load on the left was confirming the 20" barreled rifle did not like that load. Evidently I was correct. The load on the right is the one developed for this rifle.

View attachment 1032946
This is the same load from the 16" barrel. This was a coincidence. This load was not developed for the 16" rifle. The most accurate factory loads I've tried were Hornady 223 Remington 75 grain Match and, somehow, Frontier (Hornady) 223 Remington 55 grain FMJ. These weren't as accurate as the pictures, but were close. I don't normally do mag dumps or rapid fire type shooting, so cannot comment on either rifles behavior under such circumstances. The range I frequent has a 3-second delay rule for "rapid" firing. After having my target stand shot up when loaning it out, I cannot disagree with that rule. Unfortunately I cannot speak for any other brand and have not built one from scratch, so cannot comment on components in that regard. I did assemble the lowers for both mine from parts kits, and had a little hiccup on the adjustable stock castle nut coming loose, but that was because I didn't tighten or stake it properly. That has been remedied and I haven't had any issues since.
Click to expand...

Your PSA is perfectly capable of hard use. In fact, PSA Freedom rifles are so very close to a mil-spec M-4 it's not even funny.

There really is no such thing as an entry-level AR-15. It's a lie sold to us by DD and LMT and the like. Instead, there are mil-spec rifles and higher-end rifles where you are really getting into better triggers, rails, perhaps some Gucci BCGs and the big one, barrels.

You could carry your PSA, Ruger, Bushmaster, Springfield, Colt, etc. AR-15s into combat today because there is so little difference between all of the basic AR-15s and all of them are so very close to what Uncle Sugar issues.

There is no such thing as an entry level AR-15 unless you get away from mil-spec and buy a polymer lower, but don't do that!
 
ClaymoreAKM said:
There is no such thing as an entry level AR-15 unless you get away from mil-spec and buy a polymer lower, but don't do that!
Click to expand...
KP-15 poly lower has been out for over a year now and has been holding up fine for thousands of people. Also has a lifetime warranty from KE Arms, and they'll even replace it once for $65 if you break it for any reason including abuse or neglect.
 
General Geoff said:
KP-15 poly lower has been out for over a year now and has been holding up fine for thousands of people. Also has a lifetime warranty from KE Arms, and they'll even replace it once for $65 if you break it for any reason including abuse or neglect.
Click to expand...
With the price of milspec forged aluminum lowers these days, I can't think of a single reason to ever buy a polymer lower.
 
General Geoff said:
Seems to work just fine to me, I'm not sure a forged aluminum lower with a threaded-in buffer tube could survive the same. But hey, stick with what you know and trust. Aluminum receivers aren't going anywhere :)
Click to expand...

Hey pal, if you want a plastic lower, go right ahead. Aluminum is a far more resilient material for combat rifles.

you do you
 
GBExpat said:
I have only read the OP ...

I paused a moment upon reading that ... and realized that I live in a much different environment. Anyone else? Show of hands. :)

x_wrench, optic/irons-ready Anderson AR-15 for under $500 w/$20 shipping looks like a decent deal to me in the current market, although I have not been researching prices and am only considering the prices that I have seen online while passing by.

I have multiple Lowers that I built on Anderson lower receivers (several with Anderson LPKs [LowerPartsKit]). Some of them I built with Anderson upper receivers but I cannot say how many. The hassle of acquiring the lower receivers makes them memorable. ;)

While I have no experience with one of the Anderson AR-15 Builds, I have found all of my Anderson AR components to be excellent, value-exceeding-price products.

HTH :)
Click to expand...

I have owned and sold various ARs in the past 30 years.... said I would never own another. But the current political climate changed my mind. So at age 78 I now own yet another, Anderson Optic ready and it works fine, 200 rounds or so and its in my safe. Added a decent Red Dot sight and it shoots to point of aim, no jams no issues. The trigger not so great, but its not a $1400 Colt like I have owned and IF I was motivated I would replace the trigger. But for a SHTF gun it will do the job.
 
General Geoff said:
"Simplify, then add lightness"
Click to expand...
Unless you're running around in full kit, humping miles through harsh terrain, then we can talk about saving a few ounces with a polymer receiver versus a forged aluminum. But then again, if you're doing those things, you're probably going to want the benefits of forged aluminum versus polymer anyway, so it's kind of pointless to consider a polymer lower receiver.

But like the other member said, "You do you, man."
 
On the issue of a poly lower, I probably wouldn't use one if someone gave me one. Not because they're bad or whatever, I really don't know how well they can stand up to long term use and occasional beatings, never really looked much into it. What I do know and what I have seen is that your standard mil spec forged aluminum lowers will withstand a horrific amount of abuse, drops, prolonged use and sustained full auto fire....etc.

Not to mention the service life of a military M16/M4 lower, some of those lowers don't have but maybe 10% of the original ano on them and they look like they went 40 revolutions through each theater of combat since the Vietnam war.
 
I found this on Anderson lowers. This poster seems to like them. I don't know if that speaks for a complete rifle or not. I have only owned one Ar-15. A DPMS 16" Panther Lite. It came as a flat top and I found a guy selling a brand new RRA carry handle for $100 and added that to it. I won the auction on it the day before Sandy Hook and I thought the seller might tell me to get lost since the price on these rifles doubled over night. But he didn't. So far since 2012 I have fired a total of 80 rounds through this gun. I guess I'm not a big fan of the gun. But I'm glad I have it. I was watching videos because my trigger is a little gritty and I wanted to see how to take it apart. Boy howdy what a simple rifle. :thumbup: Anyone could build one of these.

 
I rented a AR15 at the LGR a few months ago, realized I gotta get one before JB outlaws them, just bought the basic SW M&P 15 with the A2 iron sights, accurate as can be. As I learn more - I'll upgrade/build - but for me - keep it simple and learn the basics about the AR, then spend the $$$.
 
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