Remington’s Black Powder 45 long Colt Cartridge

I'm glad you did the test driftwood.
Thank you for posting your findings and conclusions.

My usual loading is:

I set my brass volume measure "same as yours" to 40 grains.

Fill er' up with Goex 3f

Tap the case to settle powder then load my bullet in and let the base of the bullet compress the powder.

They are stout loads.

A good crimp is needed as I've tested the rounds with a light Lee factory crimp die crimp and did notice some unburned powder out of my 1860 army with 8 " barrel.

A good crimp takes care of most of the unburned powder.

Blackpowderwarrior said:

Sir I've given up telling people you can fit 40 grains into a modern case pretty easily with no special die.
I've got around 150 loaded with 40 grains but still people tell me it's impossible without a balloon Head case. Go figure

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Have you ever chronied that beside 36 grains? I have and I got same velocity in a pistol and only slightly more with 40 grains in a rifle. To the point it's pointless and a waste of powder and trouble to use 40 grains. Only difference I can tell is you make a bigger fireball out of the end of the barrel of a pistol.

I did try black powder in modern 45LC cases and never was able to put 40 grains in the case. I was able to buy used balloon head 45 LC, sized them all, about three of those cases pulled apart in the sizing die, just at the case head. Thankfully I have an older RCBS set of sizing dies, one that the spindle is large and full diameter to the inside of the die. The die is basically a tube. May have been made that way just because of the problems I had. Once the spindle was out, I was able to take a brass drift and punch the case body out with a brass drift on the case mouth. Those balloon cases are delicate, the reason I acquired the cases was because the previous owner had blown a case head in his lever action (I think it was a rifle).

I have been lazy and have not lubed my bullets with black powder lube and loaded up the cases. I am curious as to what 40 grains will do in a 7.5 inch barrel with a 250 grain bullet.

In my post above,#3, I said I could not get 40 grains of 3F in a Starline case. Well by actual weight the starline case will hold 40.3 grains of 3F as will the Winchester, Grafs house brand “Goex”. If one used a drop tube as mentioned by gobsauce it could be more or less I can’t say. With 2F, same brand it’s 38.2 grains. Weighed on a Lyman balance beam scale.
I don’t have a powder measure handy so could be more or less by that. The weight IMO would be more accurate than a powder measure.

I load 35 in mine, compress with the bullet (250gr). I don't use a wad, drop tube or compression die. I use the C. die on my 45-70 loads and gain at LEAST an 1/8 inch; I could probably do the same on the LC. But there's really no point. It's range fodder.

Here is 35gr of Graf's 3F ready to seat the bullets.

Slamfire said:

I did try black powder in modern 45LC cases and never was able to put 40 grains in the case. I was able to buy used balloon head 45 LC, sized them all, about three of those cases pulled apart in the sizing die, just at the case head. Thankfully I have an older RCBS set of sizing dies, one that the spindle is large and full diameter to the inside of the die. The die is basically a tube. May have been made that way just because of the problems I had. Once the spindle was out, I was able to take a brass drift and punch the case body out with a brass drift on the case mouth. Those balloon cases are delicate, the reason I acquired the cases was because the previous owner had blown a case head in his lever action (I think it was a rifle).

I have been lazy and have not lubed my bullets with black powder lube and loaded up the cases. I am curious as to what 40 grains will do in a 7.5 inch barrel with a 250 grain bullet.

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As stated, I saw a video where 40 grains obtained 1000fps in a 7.5" barrel. That makes sense, as 40 in my 5.5 barrel goes slightly faster than 900fps.

I would agree that 35 grains is easier to load, and probably whatever it hits can't tell the difference between that and the 40 grain load. However, I'd not agree that loading 40 grains is a "waste" and just produces a bigger fire ball.

Hats off to you dudes that can compress your powder with the bullet. When I try that it just results in ugly deformed bullets. But I usually use very soft lead.

Ugly Sauce said:

Hats off to you dudes that can compress your powder with the bullet. When I try that it just results in ugly deformed bullets. But I usually use very soft lead.

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The lead my bullets are made from is very soft too.

But only compressing the powder about 1/16' -1/8" with the base of the bullet does not deform the base of the bullet enough to make any difference.

Found that out years ago with 44-40 and Black Powder fired out of a rifle. I found there was no significant deformation of the base of the bullet, not enough to affect accuracy with my poor vision at about 25 yards.

Loading 45-70 with BP is a different matter. I go the whole nine yards with them; powder dropped through a drop tube, compression die, and thin card wad between powder and bullet. It makes a difference with my Sharps out at 200 yards or so.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Loading 45-70 with BP is a different matter. I go the whole nine yards with them; powder dropped through a drop tube, compression die, and thin card wad between powder and bullet. It makes a difference with my Sharps out at 200 yards or so.

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Totally agree with this.

Driftwood Johnson said:

The lead my bullets are made from is very soft too.

But only compressing the powder about 1/16' -1/8" with the base of the bullet does not deform the base of the bullet enough to make any difference.

Found that out years ago with 44-40 and Black Powder fired out of a rifle. I found there was no significant deformation of the base of the bullet, not enough to affect accuracy with my poor vision at about 25 yards.

Loading 45-70 with BP is a different matter. I go the whole nine yards with them; powder dropped through a drop tube, compression die, and thin card wad between powder and bullet. It makes a difference with my Sharps out at 200 yards or so.

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And you know what else...none of my seating dies match my bullet-noses. That surely makes a difference.

Ugly Sauce said:

And you know what else...none of my seating dies match my bullet-noses. That surely makes a difference.

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It does, that!

Ugly Sauce said:

I would agree that 35 grains is easier to load, and probably whatever it hits can't tell the difference between that and the 40 grain load. However, I'd not agree that loading 40 grains is a "waste" and just produces a bigger fire ball.

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So you don't agree with data? Do you actually test these things? Do you even own a chronograph? If you are shooting from a rifle then as I said above yes it makes a difference. Makes hardly any velocity difference in a handgun. 36 grains of 3f pretty much maxes out the velocity using a modern Starline case in a 7.5 inch SAA.

Besides are you actually hunting with it? 99% of people shooting these guns with BP are just shooting steel or punching holes in paper. I've never understood the need for all this seeing how much powder you can stuff in one. Personally I think the Schofield case and a JP45 200 grain bullet is the best food you can feed these things but you know what they say about opinions. I'm just curious why the NEED or even why the desire for 40 grains when data test show literally nilch velocity is gained beyond 36.

Now with Goex shutting down and the availability and pricing of BP in the coming future is more questionable you'd think things like this would be important to people now more than ever.

Cowhide Cliff said:

Personally I think the Schofield case and a JP45 200 grain bullet is the best food you can feed these things but you know what they say about opinions.

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Howdy Again

Pretty nice bullet that J/P 45-200, huh? This is the 'squat' version as I originally designed it. More recently it has been lengthened a bit with the molds currently available from biglube.com.

My Schofield load is 1.9CC (28.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg under the J/P 45-200 in Starline brass. The same 1/16" - 1/8" of compression I always use.

No idea what the velocity is, I need to buy a chronograph one of these days.






I actually developed this bullet to use in my 1858 Remington with its 45 Colt conversion cylinder. The Remington has less space between the trigger guard and the grip than a Colt or clone, and can be a real knuckle buster with the recoil of a 45 Colt Black Powder round.






I was also concerned about how thin the steel is where the loading lever goes through the frame. So I designed the J/P 45-200, along with another CAS shooter named Peterson, when the only 45 Colt Big Lube bullet available was the big 250 grain PRS bullet.

Ugly Sauce said:

And you know what else...none of my seating dies match my bullet-noses. That surely makes a difference.

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Interesting. Learn something new every day.

All the bullets I use with Black Powder are Round Nosed Flat Point. Or Flat Point Round Nosed, which ever you prefer.

That is because I use them in Cowboy Action, and one of the rules in CAS is all bullets must have a flat point (meplat) because we use them in tubular magazine rifles as well as pistols. You don't want pointy bullets pressing against primers in a tubular magazine.

These are my Black Powder bullets. Left to right, the 180 grain Big Lube 38-40 bullet, 200 grain 44 caliber Mav-Dutchman Big Lube, 200 grain J/P 45-200 Big Lube, and 250 grain 45 caliber PRS Big Lube. The 405 grain bullet is what I use in my 45-70 rounds, and the bullet all the way on the right is one of my old pan lubed, had cast 250 grain 45 Colt bullets.






Here they are in their respective cartridges. Left to right, 44 Russian with the 44 Mav-Dutchman bullet, 45 Schofield with the J/P 45-200, 38-40 with the 180 grain 38-40 bullet, 44-40 with the Mav-Dutchman, 45 Colt with the PRS 250 grain, and 45-70 with the 405 grain bullet.





In Smokeless I use a 125 grain Truncated Cone or 158 grain Semi-Wadcutter in 38 Special.






The seating plugs inside my dies are all flat on the bottom, they work fine with flat nosed bullets.

My objection to cramming 40g of black powder in modern cases is it is somewhat an over pressure load. Someone here claimed they got over 1000 fps from a 7.5" gun and over 900 fps in their 5.5" revolver. That's more than the original performance.

Back in the late 1980s I came across a box of NOS balloon head cases, never fired and clean as a whistle. I loaded 40g of GOEX FFg under a custom molded 255g RNFP cast from the same alloy (20-1) as Winchester and Rem-UMC used back the the late 19th Century. Then I chronographed that ammunition through three 1st Gen Colt SAAs I had back then, a 7-1/2", a 5-1/2", and a 4-3/4".

In the 7-1/2" Calvary Colt the average velocity was 914 fps, very close to the factory claim of 910 fps. In the 5-1/2" Artillery Model Colt the same ammo produced 894 fps. And finally 864 fps in my 4-3/4" civilian Colt. After a lot of experimenting, and chronographing I found 36g of GOEX FFFg duplicated that performance in WW and RP brass. When I got back into black powder cartridge a few years ago I am now shooting USFA single actions. I did some more tests because only had the heavier Starline brass and was now using the superior GOEX powder, Olde Eynsford. Using Big-Libe's 250g RNFP, 35g of OE will duplicate the performance of the original.

If you want more power than the original BP 45 Colt load, maybe you should switch to smokeless powder and a Ruger Vaquero.

Just sayin',
Dave

Cowhide Cliff said:

So you don't agree with data? Do you actually test these things? Do you even own a chronograph? If you are shooting from a rifle then as I said above yes it makes a difference. Makes hardly any velocity difference in a handgun. 36 grains of 3f pretty much maxes out the velocity using a modern Starline case in a 7.5 inch SAA.

Besides are you actually hunting with it? 99% of people shooting these guns with BP are just shooting steel or punching holes in paper. I've never understood the need for all this seeing how much powder you can stuff in one. Personally I think the Schofield case and a JP45 200 grain bullet is the best food you can feed these things but you know what they say about opinions. I'm just curious why the NEED or even why the desire for 40 grains when data test show literally nilch velocity is gained beyond 36.

Now with Goex shutting down and the availability and pricing of BP in the coming future is more questionable you'd think things like this would be important to people now more than ever.

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Data is highly over-rated. ! Just kidding. Chill. Sorry if I offended you, which it sounds like. Have another cup of coffee!

Dang! A 200 grain bullet! I bet I could get 45 grains under that. JUST KIDDING!!!!!

Yes I've shot my 40 grain loads quite a bit, I've not noticed too much recoil or flash-bang-fireballs. Compared to my .44 Magnum it's a mild shooting gun. So I "think" I've tested them. They are accurate.

Yes, I have a chronograph, and have posted on this thread a couple of times what velocity I get with the 40 grain load. I'm happy with the velocity, don't really see a NEED to reduce it four grains. ?

No, I'm not trying to see how much powder I can stuff in. Just like the idea of using the original loading. I'm not worried about a 4 grain difference, either way. And no, there's not much difference in velocity. However, I have no problem loading 40 grains, so again, I'm not sure for a need to reduce it four of five grains. Works well for me as-is.

No, I don't hunt with my .45 Colt pistol. But, I often carry it when hunting. I hunt in a grizzly recovery area. Perhaps the extra four grains gives me a psychological edge. Like Josey wales said: "a man has got to have an edge". Or something like that. But I'm certainly not a paper-puncher.

Sometimes it's my primary arm when exploring or trekking, and I'm just using a .22 rifle or bow and arrow for small game in case I get stranded in the wilderness. Just lately I had to shoot a problem Black bear (with my rifle) and had I only had the .45 Colt, I don't think I would have minded the extra four grains, or a lighter bullet, although yes, it probably would have made no difference, other than psychological. !!!

Okay, sorry to ruffle your feathers. I respect your opinion, sorry to have offended you with mine. !!

Dave T said:

If you want more power than the original BP 45 Colt load, maybe you should switch to smokeless powder and a Ruger Vaquero.

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Or a .44 Mag. Hey, I only "claimed" to have seen a video where 1000fps was achieved in a 7.5" barrel with the 40 grain load. Pretty sure it was not faked.

However, if the original velocity was 900fps from the 7.5", that's kind of confusing. I had always thought it was closer to 1000fps. ? I guess not.

Edit: Had a brain fart. Yes closer to 900fps was the original load.

I do indeed get around 900fps or just short of from my 5.5" barrel, but it's a modern gun made of modern steel, and I don't see an extra 100fps with black powder being dangerously over-pressure. I'm certainly not worried about it.

I'm kind of worried that so many are taking offense to it. ???

Ugly Sauce said:

Or a .44 Mag. Hey, I only "claimed" to have seen a video where 1000fps was achieved in a 7.5" barrel with the 40 grain load. Pretty sure it was not faked.

However, if the original velocity was 900fps from the 7.5", that's kind of confusing. I had always thought it was closer to 1000fps. ? I guess not.

I do indeed get around 900fps or just short of from my 5.5" barrel, but it's a modern gun made of modern steel, and I don't see an extra 100fps with black powder being dangerously over-pressure. I'm certainly not worried about it.

I'm kind of worried that so many are taking offense to it. ???

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Hey Mr UglySauce you should know by now these forums are jock full of nay sayers, if it ain’t there way it’s no way. Do your thing.
I load up 45C in black with whatever the case will hold, 40.3 grains of 3F. I do because I because it’s why I shoot black powder to begin with. And with close to 30 pounds of Goex on hand and a couple thousands primers loading a few “hotter” 45’s for a fireworks show once in a while isn’t going to break the bank. And if I want hotter I’ll drag out the S&W model 25 and shoot off some smokeless using the same 250 grain RNFP bullet, or the models 27 or 29 and really make some noise.

Yeah, I know we are mostly a bunch of grumpy old men...but to be offended by loading the .45 Colt as originally loaded...and making accusations...not sure what's up about that. But thank you for your support!

I don' believe I made any accusations against anyone, in fact I mentioned no names at all. And I don't care what others do, as long as it's safe.

I come at this whole subject from a history perspective. My personal goal (doesn't have to be anyone else's goal) is experience what is would have been like to walk into a mercantile store in the 1880s and ask for a box of 45 Colt's. Then go out into the desert or mountains or prairie and shoot them through your Colt SAA. That's what does it for me and that is the reason I bother with all this.

No one else has to do it my way and I didn't mean to imply that they should. Maybe I didn't make that clear. Shame on me.

Dave

No you didn't accuse anyone, but I was accused of "not testing my loads", and not having a chronograph, and not agreeing with data, by "someone" who's posts and opinions I've always liked and respected.

But it's all good, I take no offense, the "tone" of the post just puzzled me a bit. Grumpy old men. It is what it is.

Dave, it looks to me like your 5.5" revolver produced the same velocity as my 5.5". Remember I said I got a high of 926fps, but the average was the same or closer to yours. Most rounds were 890-894-896 and so on fps. I forget but I think my low was 876fps. I think we could call that safe. ?? Or in the ball park. Or on par. or...!!

Cowhide Cliff said:

So you don't agree with data? Do you actually test these things? Do you even own a chronograph? If you are shooting from a rifle then as I said above yes it makes a difference. Makes hardly any velocity difference in a handgun. 36 grains of 3f pretty much maxes out the velocity using a modern Starline case in a 7.5 inch SAA.

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If it takes a chronograph to tell the difference there is no difference.

Or not enough difference to make a difference.

hawg said:

If it takes a chronograph to tell the difference there is no difference.

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Ugly Sauce said:

Or not enough difference to make a difference.

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Exactly my point.... the chronograph just proves it for when all the chest pumpers on the internet claim it does make a difference.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Howdy Again

Pretty nice bullet that J/P 45-200, huh? This is the 'squat' version as I originally designed it. More recently it has been lengthened a bit with the molds currently available from biglube.com.

My Schofield load is 1.9CC (28.5 grains) of Schuetzen FFg under the J/P 45-200 in Starline brass. The same 1/16" - 1/8" of compression I always use.

No idea what the velocity is, I need to buy a chronograph one of these days.

View attachment 1034352




I actually developed this bullet to use in my 1858 Remington with its 45 Colt conversion cylinder. The Remington has less space between the trigger guard and the grip than a Colt or clone, and can be a real knuckle buster with the recoil of a 45 Colt Black Powder round.

View attachment 1034353




I was also concerned about how thin the steel is where the loading lever goes through the frame. So I designed the J/P 45-200, along with another CAS shooter named Peterson, when the only 45 Colt Big Lube bullet available was the big 250 grain PRS bullet.

View attachment 1034354

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Howdy, My Schofield loads are the same, the bullets I use are the longer nose version because they don't look as squatty which is why I asked which bullet it was. I've used the PRS bullet too but not in a few years, I figure no reason to waste lead trying to kill a target.