New Colt SAA?

45 Dragoon said:

That's not a definitive indication of a Colt. I've had Uberti's and have a Pietta that spells COLT. It's all about timing. I get copies of open top Armys,Navys, as well as Remingtons in the shop that spell COLT and sometimes COLTE !! They should be spelling COL or REM.
The SAA was the first to spell COLT but what if it had an ill fitted bolt or hand and didn't have 4 clicks? You mighta missed a great deal!!!

Mike

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It was no Colt. Trigger guard all wrong, barrel just looked wrong, and the grip was no Colt.

Mark_Mark said:

Freedom Arms, the guys who makes BFR?! NICE

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The BFRs are nice – I have one in .44 MAG; about $1050.00 including tax, transfer fee, and shipping.

It’s a single action revolver, but not an SAA replica – no clicks, the cylinder spins free in both directions when loading/unloading, etc.

My SAA replica is a Cimarron/Pietta in .45 Colt.

To me, that a revolver might be single action and have the appearance of an SAA doesn’t make it a replacement for a Colt.

jdc1244 said:

The BFRs are nice – I have one in .44 MAG; about $1050.00 including tax, transfer fee, and shipping.

It’s a single action revolver, but not an SAA replica – no clicks, the cylinder spins free in both directions when loading/unloading, etc.

My SAA replica is a Cimarron/Pietta in .45 Colt.

To me, that a revolver might be single action and have the appearance of an SAA doesn’t make it a replacement for a Colt.

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very true, Does anybody else think the sights on a FA is kindda funky??? front reminds me of a Ruger Mark 2 sights and rear looks like a rifle scope mount

I like the style and classic like of classic cowboy guns

↑
[QUOTE="I want a real Colt too. But at 2500-3500 I am gonna pass. Uberti isn't the answer for me as I had two brand new El patron .357 revolvers fail miserably in the past year.
The new spaghetti westerns are great looking paper weights. Just don't try to shoot them.

Funny you say that. I know folks that shoot 20,000 psi range loads out of theirs and they love um!! Like I posted above, the "spaghetti westerns" can be made to run as long or longer than a Ruger, you can treat um like a fool and you can't necessarily do that with a $2500 + Colt out of the box! On top of that you'd still have less than $1000 in the Uberti or Pietta!

I know everyone wants a $500.00 gun to run like a $2000.00 + gun . . . and if it won't , it's just trash . . . Folks win state championships with these guns but then they don't mind adding a buck or two to make that happen. For me, I've spent a lot of time figuring out how to make that happen with these S.A.s and it's rather satisfying when it happens.

Mike [/QUOTE]

Another data point to enhance your incredible expertise:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ompetition-range-report.891504/#post-11985517

Gues I should have sent it to you instead of back to Uberti/Stoeger/Benelli, you could have properly heat treated the frame after you un-stretched it.

x

Well MB, I said that mainly because your experience isn't the norm. Since the "spaghetti" S.A.s can handle rather stout rounds and have an excellent reputation.
After looking at your original post that you provided a link for (thanks), the comment from Stoger mentioned "scratches on the cylinder" which indicates probable lockup problems. Add to that the fired cases you posted pics of with off center firing pin strikes indicate out of battery firing!!

The frame was "most likely" damaged with repeated out of battery firings. You also state this was a new revolver (2020/2021?) so with work stoppages in Italy, I would definitely do a thorough check with any revolver made in these years. If a revolver EVER has throw-by problems, stop shooting it until it has been addressed. Shooting top strap revolvers out of battery is how they become "open tops"!!

So who's fault? Probably shared. Production guns are just that " production "! Doesn't mean one (or 2) can't slip through insp. , especially during times with on again/off again production . . . so to your point - buyer be ware! But, the end user has the responsibility of making sure it IS in a safe condition! Glad you or others weren't hurt!!

Mike

45 Dragoon said:

Well MB, I said that mainly because your experience isn't the norm. Since the "spaghetti" S.A.s can handle rather stout rounds and have an excellent reputation.
After looking at your original post that you provided a link for (thanks), the comment from Stoger mentioned "scratches on the cylinder" which indicates probable lockup problems. Add to that the fired cases you posted pics of with off center firing pin strikes indicate out of battery firing!!

The frame was "most likely" damaged with repeated out of battery firings. You also state this was a new revolver (2020/2021?) so with work stoppages in Italy, I would definitely do a thorough check with any revolver made in these years. If a revolver EVER has throw-by problems, stop shooting it until it has been addressed. Shooting top strap revolvers out of battery is how they become "open tops"!!

So who's fault? Probably shared. Production guns are just that " production "! Doesn't mean one (or 2) can't slip through insp. , especially during times with on again/off again production . . . so to your point - buyer be ware! But, the end user has the responsibility of making sure it IS in a safe condition! Glad you or others weren't hurt!!

Mike

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So you are a revolver expert but you have no idea what end shake is or why it would happen??? The frame stretched due to improper heat treat. It stretched by over 1/4" after 300 rounds. How does a revolver fire "out of battery" if the cylinder was not lined up the firing pin cannot strike the primer. There was no evidence that a bullet struck the forcing cone at all.

Master Blaster said:

So you are a revolver expert but you have no idea what end shake is or why it would happen??? The frame stretched due to improper heat treat. It stretched by over 1/4" after 300 rounds. How does a revolver fire "out of battery" if the cylinder was not lined up the firing pin cannot strike the primer. There was no evidence that a bullet struck the forcing cone at all.

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You're right sir. I shouldn't have offered any explanations or possibilities. My mistake. Still glad you or anyone near you were not hurt.

Mike

Alec Bowin is starting in a new Spaghetti Western… Heard it’s bad

45 Dragoon said:

Well MB, I said that mainly because your experience isn't the norm. Since the "spaghetti" S.A.s can handle rather stout rounds and have an excellent reputation.
After looking at your original post that you provided a link for (thanks), the comment from Stoger mentioned "scratches on the cylinder" which indicates probable lockup problems. Add to that the fired cases you posted pics of with off center firing pin strikes indicate out of battery firing!!

The frame was "most likely" damaged with repeated out of battery firings. You also state this was a new revolver (2020/2021?) so with work stoppages in Italy, I would definitely do a thorough check with any revolver made in these years. If a revolver EVER has throw-by problems, stop shooting it until it has been addressed. Shooting top strap revolvers out of battery is how they become "open tops"!!

So who's fault? Probably shared. Production guns are just that " production "! Doesn't mean one (or 2) can't slip through insp. , especially during times with on again/off again production . . . so to your point - buyer be ware! But, the end user has the responsibility of making sure it IS in a safe condition! Glad you or others weren't hurt!!

Mike

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100% my 2020 Italian job was broken. But, it gave me an opportunity to take it apart!

Driftwood Johnson said:

I have to say I am really impressed with that photo. Not sure I understand everything you are talking about. I think I get that you have substituted coil springs for the bolt and trigger, and you are using the old spring as a keeper. I think I understand the bolt block.

Not quite sure what you are saying about "the left bolt arm is rather thin and considerably longer which allows for much greater flexibility"? Do you make your own bolt? How do you make the arm longer?

Inquiring mind wants to know.

Totally agree about leaving the main spring a flat spring. There are after market parts for rifles converting the main spring to a coil spring. I don't see the point.

I do understand about coil springs having great qualities. You are probably familiar with the leaf type spring used in the Winchester Model 1873 lever safety. The ones that come with Uberti rifles are much too stiff. Some guys in CAS make the mistake of removing them so they can shoot faster. I replaced the spring with a home made coil spring that wraps around a screw. Can't find a photo of it right now. For a while Happy Trails was offering a similar spring on his website, but he is retired now.

By the way, I just checked out your web site and I am very impressed.

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Thanks DJ ! You are correct about the coils for the trigger and bolt. The old combo spring is indeed used as the keeper and that is a bolt block taking up all the " leftover " space in the frame! Lol
The extra holes you see in the side of the frame are for pins that rest on flats ground on the trig/bolt screws to keep them locked in place as long as the T.G. and B.S. are in place. As for the left arm being longer I'll post a few pics to show how that happens.



The bolt on the left is brand new the right one has been massaged a little. The left arm (to your right) of the bolt is some thinner that the new one. I should point out that even the new bolt has a thin left arm but they haven't always been that way. All of the reproduction parts had thick arms on both sides until maybe 10 yes ago when Uberti started making them just like the originals- thin on the working side.



In this image you can see the left arm has been cut /clearanced to give it more length (where it meets the body of the bolt). It has also been clearanced for the working arm of the spring to lay "within" the bolt.



Here the bolt head has been clearanced at the body junction and it gets back to full width right at the top (shiny area). This protects the edge of the notch since the "fitted " section of the bolt head is in the bottom of the notch . . . no contact of the edge with the bolt head.
There is also clearancing under the bolt arms for the trigger spring located on the trigger screwpin.

The extra length and thinness of the arm allows much more flexibility which translates to lifetimes of service. The necessary strength (in the vertical) remains basically unchanged.

Hope this helps some.

Mike

45 Dragoon:

Wow. Thanks for the reply and the very clear photos.

So you don't actually 'lengthen' anything, you cut back in various places to make the working portion longer. Thanks very much for the photos and the explanation.

45 Dragoon said:

Thanks DJ ! You are correct about the coils for the trigger and bolt. The old combo spring is indeed used as the keeper and that is a bolt block taking up all the " leftover " space in the frame! Lol
The extra holes you see in the side of the frame are for pins that rest on flats ground on the trig/bolt screws to keep them locked in place as long as the T.G. and B.S. are in place. As for the left arm being longer I'll post a few pics to show how that happens.

View attachment 1035471

The bolt on the left is brand new the right one has been massaged a little. The left arm (to your right) of the bolt is some thinner that the new one. I should point out that even the new bolt has a thin left arm but they haven't always been that way. All of the reproduction parts had thick arms on both sides until maybe 10 yes ago when Uberti started making them just like the originals- thin on the working side.

View attachment 1035477

In this image you can see the left arm has been cut /clearanced to give it more length (where it meets the body of the bolt). It has also been clearanced for the working arm of the spring to lay "within" the bolt.

View attachment 1035482

Here the bolt head has been clearanced at the body junction and it gets back to full width right at the top (shiny area). This protects the edge of the notch since the "fitted " section of the bolt head is in the bottom of the notch . . . no contact of the edge with the bolt head.
There is also clearancing under the bolt arms for the trigger spring located on the trigger screwpin.

The extra length and thinness of the arm allows much more flexibility which translates to lifetimes of service. The necessary strength (in the vertical) remains basically unchanged.

Hope this helps some.

Mike

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This is inspiring me to break out the Flitz and Dremel. I polished the bolt after I filed it and tighten the spring screw and my lock up is tight!

I feel like polishing everything in that gun now!

45 Dragoon said:

Thanks DJ ! You are correct about the coils for the trigger and bolt. The old combo spring is indeed used as the keeper and that is a bolt block taking up all the " leftover " space in the frame! Lol
The extra holes you see in the side of the frame are for pins that rest on flats ground on the trig/bolt screws to keep them locked in place as long as the T.G. and B.S. are in place. As for the left arm being longer I'll post a few pics to show how that happens.

View attachment 1035471

The bolt on the left is brand new the right one has been massaged a little. The left arm (to your right) of the bolt is some thinner that the new one. I should point out that even the new bolt has a thin left arm but they haven't always been that way. All of the reproduction parts had thick arms on both sides until maybe 10 yes ago when Uberti started making them just like the originals- thin on the working side.

View attachment 1035477

In this image you can see the left arm has been cut /clearanced to give it more length (where it meets the body of the bolt). It has also been clearanced for the working arm of the spring to lay "within" the bolt.

View attachment 1035482

Here the bolt head has been clearanced at the body junction and it gets back to full width right at the top (shiny area). This protects the edge of the notch since the "fitted " section of the bolt head is in the bottom of the notch . . . no contact of the edge with the bolt head.
There is also clearancing under the bolt arms for the trigger spring located on the trigger screwpin.

The extra length and thinness of the arm allows much more flexibility which translates to lifetimes of service. The necessary strength (in the vertical) remains basically unchanged.

Hope this helps some.

Mike

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why did you cut a slit in that bolt?

M.M., that's where the coil spring arm lays in the bolt. I convert them to coils. Go back and look at the pic I posted on pg. 3. It'll make a little more sense.

Mike

45 Dragoon said:

M.M., that's where the coil spring arm lays in the bolt. I convert them to coils. Go back and look at the pic I posted on pg. 3. It'll make a little more sense.

Mike

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you got a solution for end play? I seen were they make shims. I orders some feeler gauge to check my end play, I should know numbers soon.

Mark Mark, you mean "endshake"? That's all open top platforms have for the barrel/cyl setup. That's the main reason for correcting the arbor length. I don't do any barrel setbacks on top strap revolvers. Remington's and ROA's leave here with what they had when they got here!! Opentops get a .0025"- .003" clearance. They can take it because they are "self cleaning" since the cyl face contacts the barrel throughout the cycle.

Mike

Mark_Mark said:

This is inspiring me to break out the Flitz and Dremel.

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Ixnay on the Dremel Tool. More guns have probably been ruined with a Dremel tool than anything else. It will remove too much metal way too fast. Files and stones are the way to go.

Driftwood Johnson said:

Ixnay on the Dremel Tool. More guns have probably been ruined with a Dremel tool than anything else. It will remove too much metal way too fast. Files and stones are the way to go.

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thanks bud! been years since I filed metal by hand but I still can, not scared! Tell you what, These replicas are very nice! Metal on Metal

Driftwood Johnson said:

Ixnay on the Dremel Tool. More guns have probably been ruined with a Dremel tool than anything else. It will remove too much metal way too fast. Files and stones are the way to go.

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In my experience, Dremels are destructive with any kind of stone on them
For internal parts - I use a small black Arkansas stone,
0000 grit emery paper. Drexel only comes into use with a felt polishing
Pad and some polishing rouge or 600 grit silica.

I own 2 Colt single action army’s, a 5 1/2” 45 Colt and 4 3/4” in 357. I also own 2 of the resent Colt new frontiers. Both 4 3/4” and 45 colt. They are all very nice, well fitted and finished revolvers. They shot to point of aim at 10 and 25 yards. The only complaint I have is with the new frontiers. The grips are fitted well, but on the left side, where the frame meets the grip frame, they both have the grips cut with an angle, on the bottom, that exposes a sharp corner of the frame. It has never been a problem, when shooting. It just looks bad. I know grips can be replaced but on a Colt single action, it’s not just buying a set off the shelf. Some fitting is required, I am going to have grips made for them, at some point. The price has gone up a good bit, since I bought mine, and it’s going to keep going up. A Colt single action, is a gun you will never loose money on. At one time, when I was looking and buying, you could figure them going up around $100 a year. Now it may be more? I am not sure what the going price of a new Colt single action is now. I do think for the price, Colt could have done better on the new frontier grips. The hard rubber grips on the SAA’s fit like a glove. From my experience, they are well made revolvers. You can buy knock offs, that are good revolvers also but they don’t have that rampant Colt on them anywhere. They are not Colts.

If you're going to use power tools they need to be manageable. Controllability is impossible if you're holding the motor of a dremel. A variable speed motor (foot controlled) with a flexible shaft is necessary for detailed work. I use a hanging Dremel brand but many folks use a Foredom brand moto tool. I can count the RPM at the slowest speed (you can't do that with any handheld Dremel) Be careful with the polishing wheel as you can round edges that need to stay "crisp".

Mike

Gary W. Strange, you are correct, only Colts are Colts! But why limit yourself to a weaker revolver? If it's for collecting, I get it . . . if it's for shooting/hunting there are better alternatives. For instance the Italian copies come in 44 mag. (something Colt SAA never has). As far as the traditional 45C round, it can be loaded up for hunting /steel target whatever . . . and as you point out as far as cost goes, you can do it in PAIRS !! Lol Believe me, I'm not knocking the SAA! It is the quintessential S.A. design blueprint!! It was even designed to have a built in action stop!!! Most folks don't know that! I put one in every revolver just because of that intent (and because it works!).
Of course a Ruger S.A. is safe with six and is half the price, has coil springs, and will shoot heavy loads as well! It'll never have the "feel" the Colt has but then it's not supposed to. But , done right, you can take the best of both and have a heavy shooter with an almost indestructible action (with Colt geometry!) a true "Beauty and the Beast" all rolled up in one package!!
I will agree though the original "Beauty and the Beast" was the Colt S.A.A.!!

Mike

I bought a 2021 Colt SAA earlier this year. Outstanding quality. Price was $2100, which was about the best I could find after two months of searching.

SundownRider said:

I bought a 2021 Colt SAA earlier this year. Outstanding quality. Price was $2100, which was about the best I could find after two months of searching.

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how you like that Colt!?!?!